Don't cancel your M3 just yet....

[T34ME]

While I won't "dislike" this post it is, in my opinion, these types of absolute "all or nothing", "you should believe this way" type of comments that are going to drive away more people than anything else in my opinion. Who cares what the motivation is to buying an EV? Telling people what their priorities should or should not be is the quickest way to alienate people.

Dan

I disagree. If you are a meat eater and you come to a forum for vegetarians and you start expounding on all the benefits of eating meat and how meat eating is better for you than being a vegetarian................you should expect to get some push back.

The poster said he cancelled his reservation. Fine, it is time for him to move on to the Acura forum where he will get the support and justification for his decision he is looking for. If he wants to continue on this forum that's fine too, but he should respect where the "complete enthusiasts" are coming from.

There is one primary reason to purchase and drive a BEV and that is zero emissions. You can always find ICE cars that are better than a model 3 - bigger steering wheel, instrument binnacle behind the steering wheel, HUD, alcantara headliner, fob for access, heated rear seats, ski pass through, heated steering wheel, better back up camera, better view out of the rear window, softer suspension, better interior door handles, better exterior door handles, bigger rear view mirror, more color selection, more buttons and dials, more badges on the exterior telling what you got under the hood, and the list goes on. What you don't get with an ICE car is Zero Emissions. That is the primary difference.

I am a complete enthusiast when it comes to cleaning up the environment. I will not be bullied and I will not back down from that commitment. Alienation is a two way street. The poster stated his reasons why he cancelled. I may think it is a poor decision for the reasons he stated, but it was his decision and no amount of attempted justification on a model 3 forum is going to change that. Some reservationists want a model 3 because it is faster than most ICE cars, or sportier suspension, or newest technology, or lower TOC, etc., but the primary reason to purchase a Tesla or any BEV is Zero Emissions. Your decision, you live with the results.

 

[voip-ninja]

I disagree. If you are a meat eater and you come to a forum for vegetarians and you start expounding on all the benefits of eating meat and how meat eating is better for you than being a vegetarian................you should expect to get some push back.

The poster said he cancelled his reservation. Fine, it is time for him to move on to the Acura forum where he will get the support and justification for his decision he is looking for. If he wants to continue on this forum that's fine too, but he should respect where the "complete enthusiasts" are coming from.

There is one primary reason to purchase and drive a BEV and that is zero emissions. You can always find ICE cars that are better than a model 3 - bigger steering wheel, instrument binnacle behind the steering wheel, HUD, alcantara headliner, fob for access, heated rear seats, ski pass through, heated steering wheel, better back up camera, better view out of the rear window, softer suspension, better interior door handles, better exterior door handles, bigger rear view mirror, more color selection, more buttons and dials, more badges on the exterior telling what you got under the hood, and the list goes on. What you don't get with an ICE car is Zero Emissions. That is the primary difference.

I am a complete enthusiast when it comes to cleaning up the environment. I will not be bullied and I will not back down from that commitment. Alienation is a two way street. The poster stated his reasons why he cancelled. I may think it is a poor decision for the reasons he stated, but it was his decision and no amount of attempted justification on a model 3 forum is going to change that. Some reservationists want a model 3 because it is faster than most ICE cars, or sportier suspension, or newest technology, or lower TOC, etc., but the primary reason to purchase a Tesla or any BEV is Zero Emissions. Your decision, you live with the results.

There are plenty of reasons to purchase a Model 3 and you don't get to dictate to others what the primary reason is.

Many people will purchase the car for economic reasons such as the tax incentive that will continue into next year.... many people will purchase because they are in parts of the country where the cost to operate the car will be much lower than operating an ICE vehicle due to very low electricity prices.

Others will purchase the car for perceived lower maintenance headaches in a car that "should" be more reliable.

Your truth is not everyone's truth and you seem extremely myopic on this subject.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I disagree. If you are a meat eater and you come to a forum for vegetarians and you start expounding on all the benefits of eating meat and how meat eating is better for you than being a vegetarian................you should expect to get some push back.

The poster said he cancelled his reservation. Fine, it is time for him to move on to the Acura forum where he will get the support and justification for his decision he is looking for. If he wants to continue on this forum that's fine too, but he should respect where the "complete enthusiasts" are coming from.

There is one primary reason to purchase and drive a BEV and that is zero emissions. You can always find ICE cars that are better than a model 3 - bigger steering wheel, instrument binnacle behind the steering wheel, HUD, alcantara headliner, fob for access, heated rear seats, ski pass through, heated steering wheel, better back up camera, better view out of the rear window, softer suspension, better interior door handles, better exterior door handles, bigger rear view mirror, more color selection, more buttons and dials, more badges on the exterior telling what you got under the hood, and the list goes on. What you don't get with an ICE car is Zero Emissions. That is the primary difference.

I am a complete enthusiast when it comes to cleaning up the environment. I will not be bullied and I will not back down from that commitment. Alienation is a two way street. The poster stated his reasons why he cancelled. I may think it is a poor decision for the reasons he stated, but it was his decision and no amount of attempted justification on a model 3 forum is going to change that. Some reservationists want a model 3 because it is faster than most ICE cars, or sportier suspension, or newest technology, or lower TOC, etc., but the primary reason to purchase a Tesla or any BEV is Zero Emissions. Your decision, you live with the results.

Of course I could be wrong, but I think you will find yourself in the minority on this forum if you go by your definition of a "complete enthusiast". I would guess that the majority of the people here have reserved their cars based on reasons other than or in addition to the fact that it runs on an electric powertrain not solely because it does. If that were the case, why spend this kind of money on a car when I can accomplish the same goal (driving without an internal combustion engine) for a fraction of the cost.

Fortunately, Tesla has supplied us...ALL of us...with a fleet of vehicles that appeal to a much broader consumer base. Why someone choses to cancel their reservation is entirely up to them. This thread is about the topic, right? Pontification is never going to be as successful as providing a solid product that is appealing on several levels and dispels misinformation and concerns about driving electric. Start telling people what they should believe and how they should feel and you will succeed in creating an army of people against the very thing you are trying to sell.

Dan

 

[T34ME]

If we are ever going to get to the point that a vehicle with an electric drivetrain is the norm and a viable alternative, the cars MUST be compelling. Looks, performance, value, quality, safety, features...and yes, non-pollutant status, all have to be on par with all of their competitors so that the "normal" consumer can weigh all of these things to come to an informed decision that is right for them. This can not rely solely on the lack of a tailpipe. Sure there will be people that will only see and only need that fact...but not many. If Tesla is going to reach it's goal of accelerating the adoption of renewable energy transportation then it is going to have to go much, much further than that.

Disagree. A BEV should be compelling because it is Zero Emissions not because it is equal or better than a similar ICE. If "normal people" (and that's an oxymoron) don't get it, then government will step in and compel "normal people" to adopt the technology as they are doing in India, China, parts of Europe, and California as a matter of survival for "abnormal people." I am an 'abnormal person" that is all for less government but when "normal people" are so resistant and ignorant about their own well being then government is forced to step. A somewhat similar analogy is the US government position on tobacco. If all those "normal people" who smoke fail to take responsibility for their action and effect on "abnormal people", then the government steps in with restrictions that make smoking very inconvenient and expensive for "normal people."

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Disagree. A BEV should be compelling because it is Zero Emissions not because it is equal or better than a similar ICE. If "normal people" (and that's an oxymoron) don't get it, then government will step in and compel "normal people" to adopt the technology as they are doing in India, China, parts of Europe, and California as a matter of survival for "abnormal people." I am an 'abnormal person" that is all for less government but when "normal people" are so resistant and ignorant about their own well being then government is forced to step. A somewhat similar analogy is the US government position on tobacco. If all those "normal people" who smoke fail to take responsibility for their action and effect on "abnormal people", then the government steps in with restrictions that make smoking very inconvenient and expensive for "normal people."

Ha! The only quicker way to piss people off then telling them how they SHOULD feel or believe is to MANDATE what they will or won't believe. Boy, you are heading down a slippery, ugly slope with that argument. One that will in no way help achieve what it is you so desperately seem to want.

Dan

 

[Saghost]

I disagree. If you are a meat eater and you come to a forum for vegetarians and you start expounding on all the benefits of eating meat and how meat eating is better for you than being a vegetarian................you should expect to get some push back.

The poster said he cancelled his reservation. Fine, it is time for him to move on to the Acura forum where he will get the support and justification for his decision he is looking for. If he wants to continue on this forum that's fine too, but he should respect where the "complete enthusiasts" are coming from.

There is one primary reason to purchase and drive a BEV and that is zero emissions. You can always find ICE cars that are better than a model 3 - bigger steering wheel, instrument binnacle behind the steering wheel, HUD, alcantara headliner, fob for access, heated rear seats, ski pass through, heated steering wheel, better back up camera, better view out of the rear window, softer suspension, better interior door handles, better exterior door handles, bigger rear view mirror, more color selection, more buttons and dials, more badges on the exterior telling what you got under the hood, and the list goes on. What you don't get with an ICE car is Zero Emissions. That is the primary difference.

I am a complete enthusiast when it comes to cleaning up the environment. I will not be bullied and I will not back down from that commitment. Alienation is a two way street. The poster stated his reasons why he cancelled. I may think it is a poor decision for the reasons he stated, but it was his decision and no amount of attempted justification on a model 3 forum is going to change that. Some reservationists want a model 3 because it is faster than most ICE cars, or sportier suspension, or newest technology, or lower TOC, etc., but the primary reason to purchase a Tesla or any BEV is Zero Emissions. Your decision, you live with the results.

Tesla seems to attract at least four or five different groups of buyers, only one of which is the zero emissions/domestic fuel crowd. (Tech buyer, performance buyer, AP buyer, super saver, etc.)

In my opinion, it's more important that they buy a Tesla (or other EV) for whatever reason than that they think like me - driving the Tesla still takes more emissions out of the atmosphere.

That's actually one of the most important parts of Tesla - their ability to attract buyers who aren't already looking for EVs for the sake of having an EV.

 

[N5329K]

There are plenty of reasons to purchase a Model 3 and you don't get to dictate to others what the primary reason is.

Many people will purchase the car for economic reasons such as the tax incentive that will continue into next year.... many people will purchase because they are in parts of the country where the cost to operate the car will be much lower than operating an ICE vehicle due to very low electricity prices.

Others will purchase the car for perceived lower maintenance headaches in a car that "should" be more reliable.

Your truth is not everyone's truth and you seem extremely myopic on this subject.

And some people buy a Tesla because it's a Tesla, and the car part comes later. "Take my money!"
I'd say that's an odd way of deciding on a major purchase, but if it's someone's way then sure, go for it. And if the details matter, then waiting for the car/price/timing to be made more compelling is perfectly reasonable.
Robin

 

[206er]

An EV should be the top concern. If your main concern isn't cleaning up the damage to our air quality caused by ICE, then you are a climate denier and an EV is pointless to you.

LOL, ok. We are a 1-car family, choose to pay more to live in a city and neighborhood where most of our outings can be done by foot, and I choose to ride a bicycle over 10 miles a day to/from work in any Seattle weather that isn't accumulating snow. I wanted the 3 to work for us, but it just didn't/won't and in the meantime, replacing our current ICE car with an ICE vehicle comparable or "better" than the 3 (EV-ness aside) will have to do. I can sleep easy at night knowing that I've made the best transportation choice possible for my family, and world given our situation (needing a slightly bigger car soon, wife's vehicle demands, gas mileage). We could grab a new S, but would probably have to start skipping a few meals and contributing less to savings to make it work - not ideal for our long game.

Get more of what? - more buttons and dials? more air pollution? more stops at a gasoline station? more oil changes? more of what?

More comfort, reliability, and peace of mind that your car won't be stuck in a service center for a while-longer than a while. Jury is still out on reliability of the 3, but if we ever came out to a newer car that wouldn't start that morning, that'd be the last time we'd tolerate that (eve or not, wife would never stop talking about how the car doesn't work and wouldn't feel comfortable relying on it to get our kids around; it would either need to be fixed with certainty or replaced with a different vehicle). We've always driven Hondas/Acuras and have only had to spend around 2-3 hours per year at a dealership or 3rd party shop getting oil changes. Otherwise, the cars just work.

The superiority of the model 3 is Zero Emissions. If you want your children breathing polluted air in an environment with greater swings in climate extremes, that is up to you. Elon is not really in the automobile or solar panel business, he is in the changing lifestyles for healthier living business. The BMW 330i and Audi A4 are not in the healthier living business. They are in the keep the public tied to big oil business.

Agree. But I need a car soon and no later than summer, and simply can't rely on Elon's estimates. Two rear facing car seats will not fit in our ILX, and strapping an infant and toddler to my bike or trying to transport them on a bus across the city for medical appointments just aren't options we're willing to explore.

Nicer in what way that provides a healthier future for your children?

Nice as in a safe, quiet, comfortable, reliable, and dare I say luxurious ride. Our son slept a lot in the car during his first year, and I assume our next kid will sleep in the car too. The Model 3 is a nice looking EV (externally at least) that's probably safe (won't know until crash test ratings are available) with great EV range. However, if you're apples-apples comparing it to a 330i or A4, like my wife and a lot of the mass market are and will, I just don't think it's a superior car. It was a bit loud and choppy feeling on the road compared to our lame, tight suspension ILX (read: less comfortable ride than our crappy ILX's). If all I wanted was a new luxury car and didn't care about going EV, I'd rather throw $50k at a BMW or Audi instead of a 3, and think a lot of people simply looking for a nice new luxury car will feel similarly after they get to ride in or drive one.

People are complaining that they won't be able to purchase a $27,500 (after tax credit) model 3 and you think a $50,000 base model would sell better? That's what we have right now is a $49,000 base model ($35k+9K+5K) and people are complaining about the price!

I'm saying that, after spending a few hours in a 3, the $50k version should be priced at $35k, and I'm sorta dreading seeing what the $35k interior will end up being. Making the PUP interior standard on the $35k version would make it a home run compared to other luxury sedans in its class. I do not think that the interior of the PUP 3, other than the all glass roof, is that nice, premium, or qualifies as luxurious. The fake plastic wood, other internal plastics, and especially piano black center console come across as cheapish. The seating material and carpeting also seemed kinda cheap. I think that Tesla can do better, and hopefully they will at some point.

 

[T34ME]

Of course I could be wrong, but I think you will find yourself in the minority on this forum if you go by your definition of a "complete enthusiast".

Perhaps I am in the minority, perhaps not. It makes no difference to me. You can pontificate all you want about your opinion but I will not be intimidated by the fact we are creating climate change and unhealthy air quality by driving ICE.

other than or in addition to the fact that it runs on an electric powertrain not solely because it does. If that were the case, why spend this kind of money on a car when I can accomplish the same goal (driving without an internal combustion engine) for a fraction of the cost.

Yes, that is the point of driving a BEV. You can do so for the same or less cost than driving a comparable ICE. It is a win/win, you can drive a great car for the price while cleaning the air quality at the same time.

This thread is about the topic, right?

No, you are changing the topic to suit your point of view. The thread is about why you shouldn't cancel your model 3 reservation just yet. Posters are trying to change the topic to justify why they cancelled their reservation in favor of ICE.

Pontification is never going to be as successful as providing a solid product that is appealing on several levels and dispels misinformation and concerns about driving electric.

Pontification and alienation is a point of view. Pontification and alienation is when someone says something you don't agree with. Sensible and "normal" is what you think your views are. It is a psychological trap.

Start telling people what they should believe and how they should feel and you will succeed in creating an army of people against the very thing you are trying to sell.

Isn't that what you are doing? I am not going to tolerate insults that I am not a "normal people" because I don't believe the way you do.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I would guess that the majority of the people here have reserved their cars based on reasons
Perhaps I am in the minority, perhaps not. It makes no difference to me. You can pontificate all you want about your opinion but I will not be intimidated by the fact we are creating climate change and unhealthy air quality by driving ICE.


Yes, that is the point of driving a BEV. You can do so for the same or less cost than driving a comparable ICE. It is a win/win, you can drive a great car for the price while cleaning the air quality at the same time.


No, you are changing the topic to suit your point of view. The thread is about why you shouldn't cancel your model 3 reservation just yet. Posters are trying to change the topic to justify why they cancelled their reservation in favor of ICE.

Pontification and alienation is a point of view. Pontification and alienation is when someone says something you don't agree with. Sensible and "normal" is what you think your views are. It is a psychological trap.

Isn't that what you are doing? I am not going to tolerate insults that I am not a "normal people" because I don't believe the way you do.

Uhhhh....sure.

When did I tell you what you should believe? When did I try to change anyone's mind regarding how they feel about driving EVs? When did I ever use the words "normal" or "abnormal"? Pretty sure the answers to all of those questions is never. Not sure you could say the same.

Enjoy your day.

Dan

 

[T34ME]

Tesla seems to attract at least four or five different groups of buyers, only one of which is the zero emissions/domestic fuel crowd. (Tech buyer, performance buyer, AP buyer, super saver, etc.)

In my opinion, it's more important that they buy a Tesla (or other EV) for whatever reason than that they think like me - driving the Tesla still takes more emissions out of the atmosphere.

That's actually one of the most important parts of Tesla - their ability to attract buyers who aren't already looking for EVs for the sake of having an EV.

I agree, the model 3 hits so many different marks and markets. As I said, Elon is in the changing lifestyles business, not necessarily in the traditional automobile business. The more people who drive a BEV and/or adopt personal PV, for whatever reason, the better off the rest of us will be. The point being, both reduce emissions, otherwise why have electric vehicles or solar on your roof?

 

[pdxrob]

Petition to change this forum to a micro-house, car-free, vegan, child-free, locavore discussion board, because if those aren't your only priorities you're a climate change denier.

 

[206er]

I agree, the model 3 hits so many different marks and markets. As I said, Elon is in the changing lifestyles business, not necessarily in the traditional automobile business. The more people who drive a BEV and/or adopt personal PV, for whatever reason, the better off the rest of us will be. The point being, both reduce emissions, otherwise why have electric vehicles or solar on your roof?

Ultimately, saving money by not buying gas and generating your own power will be variables here, after Tesla or someone else figures out how to further cut start-up costs (cheaper MSRP vehicles, cheaper MSRP/installation costs for solar). Of course, this assumes that local governments fail to catch on quickly and don't throw new taxes on these technologies that could offset any savings. A lot of people in the mass market want to do well by the world, but not if it negatively impacts their bottom line. Getting solar products into Home Depot will be huge for Tesla in terms of reaching folks who either don't know that Tesla exists or think that silly looking solar squares are something weirdo rich people do (paraphrasing my conservative mother-in-law's take on solar).

 

[Saghost]

I agree, the model 3 hits so many different marks and markets. As I said, Elon is in the changing lifestyles business, not necessarily in the traditional automobile business. The more people who drive a BEV and/or adopt personal PV, for whatever reason, the better off the rest of us will be. The point being, both reduce emissions, otherwise why have electric vehicles or solar on your roof?

Not sure how you're continuing to miss three point the rest of us are making. Yes, both reduce emissions, and that's a good thing. But no, it isn't the only reason someone might choose either one and that's okay.

Electric vehicles are more pleasant to drive, more reliable, require less maintenance, and cost less to refuel. Tesla adds some other features and conveniences on top of that. I'm perfectly okay with the idea of someone choosing to buy a Tesla for one of those reasons, even if they aren't concerned with air pollution.

Solar panels save money and provide backup for or replace the grid as a power source. I don't care if someone installs them because of that or because of global warming - as long as they install them.

 

[T34ME]

Ha! The only quicker way to piss people off then telling them how they SHOULD feel or believe is to MANDATE what they will or won't believe. Boy, you are heading down a slippery, ugly slope with that argument. One that will in no way help achieve what it is you so desperately seem to want.

I don't need to piss people off or tell how they should feel or believe because government will step in and mandate a course of action to protect people from themselves. I do not want to see this happen but it appears that it is inevitable.

so that the "normal" consumer can weigh all of these things to come to an informed decision that is right for them.

When did I ever use the words "normal" or "abnormal"? Pretty sure the answers to all of those questions is never. Not sure you could say the same.

Once on the Internet, difficult to claim deniability.

"Normal" consumers frequently don't make informed decisions that is right for them and often that decision affect people around them adversely.

 

[N5329K]

If all Tesla wants to do is build the best electric car on the market, that's easy. That bar is slowly rising, but it's still low.
If Tesla wants to build the best car, regardless of how it's powered, that's harder. But I think they're close with Model S.
If you want a compelling EV, you'll be pleased with whatever Tesla sells. There's no real competition yet.
If you want a compelling car for less-than-luxury money, you're going to be pickier. And you just might wait.
Robin

 

[206er]

"Normal" consumers frequently don't make informed decisions that is right for them and often that decision affect people around them adversely.

... just wow.

 

[T34ME]

Yes, both reduce emissions, and that's a good thing. But no, it isn't the only reason someone might choose either one and that's okay.

I agree

Electric vehicles are more pleasant to drive, more reliable, require less maintenance, and cost less to refuel. Tesla adds some other features and conveniences on top of that. I'm perfectly okay with the idea of someone choosing to buy a Tesla for one of those reasons, even if they aren't concerned with air pollution.

I agree

Solar panels save money and provide backup for or replace the grid as a power source. I don't care if someone installs them because of that or because of global warming - as long as they install them.

I agree

Not sure how you're continuing to miss three point the rest of us are making.

I agreed with the three points you made above so I don't think I am missing anything.

I am not sure how the rest of you are missing the single point I am making. You can always find an ICE that is equal to or better than a model 3 when it comes to performance, comfort, size, TOC, etc. What is distinctive and compelling about the model 3 is that it is a BEV that competes head on with comparable ICE cars. That is Elon's vision and mission to change lifestyles by providing a viable and compelling alternative for personal transportation. He says it succinctly in his Zero Emissions temp. license plate.

 

[McRat]

No automaker is going to consider buying TSLA in the near future.

Disagree. A BEV should be compelling because it is Zero Emissions not because it is equal or better than a similar ICE. ...

BEVs as a fleet are not Zero Emissions. Not in California at least, where the majority exist. Solar? Well if you plugged your solar into the grid, you are reducing emissions, then you ride a bicycle to work.

 

[ℬête Noire]

... just wow.

Sure T43me is strutting in full azzhat glory but seriously I'd hope you aren't so naive to think that isn't a good approximation of reality?