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Electrify America Chargers and CHAdeMO

cwerdna

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Jul 11, 2012
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VW & Porsche has a deal with this company
Electrify America is a subsidiary of VW of America. It's part of their penance for dieselgate.

Porsche is now owned by VW AG (Brands & Models of the Volkswagen Group and VW agrees $5.6bn Porsche takeover).

This is likely the reason why they're stacking the deck in favor of their own cars (CCS all in the US) and doing the bare minimum for CHAdeMO. Virtually every report on locations that are up and running report a very stilted ratio of each. Usually there are numerous SAE Combos and 1 CHAdeMO handle.
 

Eno Deb

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Electrify America is a subsidiary of VW of America. It's part of their penance for dieselgate.

Porsche is now owned by VW AG (Brands & Models of the Volkswagen Group and VW agrees $5.6bn Porsche takeover).

This is likely the reason why they're stacking the deck in favor of their own cars (CCS all in the US) and doing the bare minimum for CHAdeMO.
More likely it is simply because every carmaker with the lone exception of Nissan has dropped Chademo in favor of CCS in the US. Even Honda now uses CCS on the Clarity EV. And Tesla can come out with a US CCS adapter anytime they want to (which would also support higher charging rates than the Chademo adapter).
Virtually every report on locations that are up and running report a very stilted ratio of each. Usually there are numerous SAE Combos and 1 CHAdeMO handle.
Yes. Typically they have one Chademo outlet and 4-10 CCS outlets per location.
 
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cwerdna

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More likely it is simply because every carmaker with the lone exception of Nissan has dropped Chademo in favor of CCS in the US. Even Honda now uses CCS on the Clarity EV. And Tesla can come out with a US CCS adapter anytime they want to (which would also support higher charging rates than the Chademo adapter).
Mitsubishi (controlling stake owned by Nissan) still includes CHAdeMO w/their Outlander PHEV. And, Tesla still supports CHAdeMO with their adapter, having finally added Model 3 support earlier this year.

From looking at BEV and PHEV sales numbers at Editor's Update: Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard: September 2019, the sales numbers still don't justify the crazy stilted ratios. Other than the i3 REx and Outlander PHEV, the rest of the PHEVs can't be DC FCed.

Next gen Kia Soul EV is still not shipping in the US yet, IIRC.

Yes, I'm aware about Clarity BEV but that sells in puny numbers. Other HyunKia BEVs are in the same boat in the US. Fiat 500e can't be DC FCed. Ford Focus Electric (always sold in puny numbers) got CCS w/gen 2 but that car's dead now.

Many of the BEVs for the US market are only sold in CA or CA + CARB emission states.
 
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SageBrush

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From looking at BEV and PHEV sales numbers at Editor's Update: Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard: September 2019, the sales numbers still don't justify the crazy stilted ratios. Other than the i3 REx and Outlander PHEV, the rest of the PHEVs can't be DC FCed.
If you go by the sales numbers they should be installing in a ratio of 8 Tesla: 1 CCS : 0.5 CHAdeMO
Since CHAdeMO is a rounding error let's go with 9 Tesla : 1 CCS

Ignore the PHEVs since they do not use EA in any numbers worth counting.
 
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Eno Deb

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Mitsubishi (controlling stake owned by Nissan) still includes CHAdeMO w/their Outlander PHEV. And, Tesla still supports CHAdeMO with their adapter, having finally added Model 3 support earlier this year.

From looking at BEV and PHEV sales numbers at Editor's Update: Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard: September 2019, the sales numbers still don't justify the crazy stilted ratios.
The vast majority of EVs with Chademo in the US are Leafs, most of which have too little range to be useful for road trips and will never be used at highway locations (which are the priority in EA's phase 1 deployment). For which cars exactly in the US should EA invest in Chademo? The EA network is being built to support new EVs that are just starting to come to the market. It makes no sense to spend money on a dying standard.
Other than the i3 REx and Outlander PHEV, the rest of the PHEVs can't be DC FCed.
These aren't likely to be used at highway locations either. The EA network is clearly aimed at newer long-range cars such as the Bolt, E-Tron, I-Pace, Taycan, Niro EV etc., and they all use CCS, again with the lone exception of the Leaf Plus.
 
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cwerdna

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The vast majority of EVs with Chademo in the US are Leafs, most of which have too little range to be useful for road trips and will never be used at highway locations (which are the priority in EA's phase 1 deployment).
I haven't followed EA's phases but FWIW, 2 coming EA soon locations are sort of near home and although they're near highways, one's in a strip mall and another in the parking lot of a major mall. Neither are in the middle of nowhere and both are within 6 miles of home. This is within easy reach of a Leaf.

I see some other coming soon EA locations, within 12 miles of home, again within easy reach of a Leaf.

As for "never be used at highway locations", well, gee, the DC FC at VW's Belmont research office used to be heavily frequented. It's off 101. When Boardwalk Nissan's (in Redwood City) CHAdeMO charger (also not far off 101) was free, that was popular. A few years ago, someone I know was charging her Leaf there on a lone CHAdeMO charger and IIRC, she posted there were 5 or 6 in line behind her.

I guess by your logic, CHAdeMO chargers shouldn't be installed at all if they happen to be near a freeway.
For which cars exactly in the US should EA invest in Chademo?
Besides Leaf, all Tesla models. Believe it or not, there are gaps in Tesla Supercharger infrastructure, esp. outside CA. CHAdeMO also provides alternatives when stuff like this happens besides outages or power failures at SC sites:
15 cars in line, 2 hour wait
Quartzsite supercharger getting overloaded during peak holiday travel times
(Reported on 12/26/2015) 11+ car wait at Tejon Ranch!
Supercharger - Beaver, UT
The EA network is clearly aimed at newer long-range cars such as the Bolt, E-Tron, I-Pace, Taycan, Niro EV etc., and they all use CCS, again with the lone exception of the Leaf Plus.
Taycan isn't shipping yet. i-Pace and Niro EV sells in tiny numbers. E-tron and Taycan are VW AG products, see a pattern?

If EA truly cared about supporting EVs in fairer manner, their deployments wouldn't be so heavily skewed against CHAdeMO. Tesla folks should really be leaning on EA to not do the bare minimum for CHAdeMO.

I find it a bit bizarre that there's so much hatred for CHAdeMO when CCS is the standard that probably shouldn't exist and created two unnecessary plugs (Combo1 and Combo2 vs. the world standard that is CHAdeMO) and has a bunch of "supporter" (carmakers) that do virtually nothing to support its infrastructure and/or aren't serious about DC FCing EVs (e.g. GM, FCA, Ford and to a lesser degree, BMW). And, for the longest time, VW AG hasn't at all been serious about EVs in the US.

SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US - Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum was pretty accurate back in 2012. Seemed like the goal was to create customer confusion and slow down Nissan.
 
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miimura

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Aug 21, 2013
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Los Altos, CA
This location is clearly within a metropolitan area. It's within range of all kinds of EVs no matter how short their range may be. EA will be installing both metro area chargers and highway corridor chargers. Obviously the highway locations like Panoche Rd. Shell off I-5 in Firebaugh will see different usage patterns than this one.

The ratio of CCS to CHAdeMO cables at their sites has nothing to do with the kind of cars likely to use them and everything to do with which vehicles VW wanted to support. They don't want to support Tesla vehicles and they only support CHAdeMO to the extent necessary. Only one CHAdeMO cable per site is necessary, so that's exactly what they did. Period.
 

Eno Deb

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Aug 17, 2018
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I haven't followed EA's phases but FWIW, 2 coming EA soon locations are sort of near home and although they're near highways, one's in a strip mall and another in the parking lot of a major mall. Neither are in the middle of nowhere and both are within 6 miles of home. This is within easy reach of a Leaf.
Their cycle 1 plan explicitly says that the priority is to enable long-distance travel. Metropolitan locations will play a larger role in the next cycle.
I guess by your logic, CHAdeMO chargers shouldn't be installed at all if they happen to be near a freeway.
They shouldn't invest in installing Chademo chargers away from metropolitan areas, correct. Complete waste of money at this point. It's only a matter of time until Nissan drops Chademo too in the US.
Besides Leaf, all Tesla models. Believe it or not, there are gaps in Tesla Supercharger infrastructure, esp. outside CA. CHAdeMO also provides alternatives when stuff like this happens besides outages or power failures at SC sites:
15 cars in line, 2 hour wait
Quartzsite supercharger getting overloaded during peak holiday travel times
(Reported on 12/26/2015) 11+ car wait at Tejon Ranch!
Supercharger - Beaver, UT

Taycan isn't shipping yet. i-Pace and Niro EV sells in tiny numbers.
And how many Tesla drivers actually own the $500 Chademo adapter?
If EA truly cared about supporting EVs in fairer manner, their deployments wouldn't be so heavily skewed against CHAdeMO. Tesla folks should really be leaning on EA to not do the bare minimum for CHAdeMO.
Tesla folks should be leaning on Tesla to release a US version of their CCS adapter. It would not only be passive (i.e. less expensive), but also not limited to 50kW.
when CCS is the standard that probably shouldn't exist and created two unnecessary plugs (Combo1 and Combo2 vs. the world standard that is CHAdeMO)
The two combo versions exist to be compatible with the existing L2 plugs in their regions, which makes it possible that the cars don't require two separate charging ports for AC and DC charging like Chademo. This is not "unnecessary", but a big plus in my book.
and has a bunch of "supporter" (carmakers) that do virtually nothing to support its infrastructure
Funny you should say that in a thread where you are complaining that they are building too many CCS stations.
 
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Eno Deb

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The ratio of CCS to CHAdeMO cables at their sites has nothing to do with the kind of cars likely to use them and everything to do with which vehicles VW wanted to support. They don't want to support Tesla vehicles and they only support CHAdeMO to the extent necessary.
I think the argument that they "don't want to support Tesla" is completely ridiculous, given that Tesla doesn't support anyone else either with their proprietary network, doesn't support Chademo natively, and can release a US version of their CCS adapter anytime they want.
Only one CHAdeMO cable per site is necessary, so that's exactly what they did. Period.
Indeed, and for good reason.
 

miimura

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Aug 21, 2013
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Los Altos, CA
I think the argument that they "don't want to support Tesla" is completely ridiculous, given that Tesla doesn't support anyone else either with their proprietary network, doesn't support Chademo natively, and can release a US version of their CCS adapter anytime they want.
"Only one CHAdeMO cable per site is necessary, so that's exactly what they did. Period."
Indeed, and for good reason.
VW doesn't want to support Tesla and Tesla doesn't want to support the weak EVs from others either. So what.
My comment about the necessity of CHAdeMO support was referring to the "contractually obligated to support CHAdeMO" clause in the VW dieselgate settlement. One CHAdeMO cable per site meets that requirement. They did not make any assessment of how likely they were to be used, they just decided to do the minimum required by the settlement. You're saying they don't need to support it because nobody will use it. I maintain that they never even bothered to evaluate how much CHAdeMO is likely to be used.

The funny thing is that you can see in the early pictures from the EA site in Livermore, CA that nobody was using the site except a Leaf.

Plugshare December 6, 2018
366539.jpeg
 

Eno Deb

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Aug 17, 2018
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VW doesn't want to support Tesla and Tesla doesn't want to support the weak EVs from others either. So what.
As if not deploying more Chademo cables did anything to "not support Tesla". :rolleyes: Neither is Tesla limited to Chademo for accessing EA chargers (as mentioned several times, they can easily release a CCS adapter if they want to), nor was there a Chademo adapter available for the only Tesla mass market model at the time they made the deployment plan. And the number of Tesla drivers who own a Chademo adapter is likely insignificant.
I maintain that they never even bothered to evaluate how much CHAdeMO is likely to be used.
There is no basis for that assumption, and it doesn't make much sense.
 

cwerdna

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Jul 11, 2012
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And how many Tesla drivers actually own the $500 Chademo adapter?
I don't know but someone at my work seemed to be real interested in buying one. Three L3 chargers failed to work late at night - My Nissan Leaf Forum in Seattle wrote "Then why do I see Telsa's at the Chademo stations all the time using their hack adapters?"

Tesla folks should be leaning on Tesla to release a US version of their CCS adapter. It would not only be passive (i.e. less expensive), but also not limited to 50kW.
How do you know it would be passive and less expensive? Folks with earlier Teslas who want to use Combo2 (which is not the same as Combo1 here) had to pay money to have their cars retrofitted: When can we expect to see a CCS Adapter for the Model S?. 750 euros is almost $827 USD for a retrofit with adapter.

510 GPB is almost $643 USD. That sounds like a retrofit only price.
The two combo versions exist to be compatible with the existing L2 plugs in their regions, which makes it possible that the cars don't require two separate charging ports for AC and DC charging like Chademo. This is not "unnecessary", but a big plus in my book.
:rolleyes: That's the usual "advantage" that CCS supporters cite. It is unnecessary because they created two unnecessary plugs when a world standard already existed and already supported V2H and V2G. It is unnecessary because at the time, no vehicles nor chargers existed supporting it. It would take years for both to appear and for years, some "supporters" (e.g. GM, Ford, FCA and VAG) were not putting any wood behind their arrow in terms of actually supporting and paying for infrastructure or being serious about DC FCing EVs.

The Spark EV was a CA compliance car that sold in puny numbers. Take a look at Monthly Plug-In Report Card Archive.

GM pulled this garbage: GM and Nissan trade punches over electric car fast charging | Torque News
Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.
GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
First on CNN Business: GM and Bechtel plan to build thousands of electric car charging stations across the US - CNN
Neither company plans to put money into this project, though. The two companies will create a separate corporation to build the charging network and other companies are being invited to invest in it. Neither GM nor Bechtel would name potential investors while discussions are still ongoing.
Really? Start something up like this and not be willing to have skin in the game?

Gen 1 Focus Electric didn't ever support DC FCing. Gen 2 FFE sold in puny numbers before it was killed. FCA never introduced a single EV/PHEV in the US that could be DC FCed.

BMW i3 will be discontinued (their only vehicle in the US that can be DC FCed) while they keep pumping out PHEVs that can only be L1 and L2 charged.

VW e-Golf is a CARB compliance sold only in CARB emission states.
Funny you should say that in a thread where you are complaining that they are building too many CCS stations.
It seems like almost every time I see reports in Bolt group or YouTube channels like News Coulomb of multiple SAE Combo chargers at one location, it seems like the SAE Combo chargers (esp. at EA sites) are pretty much unused (e.g. only a lone vehicle is there, the person posting the report). Why put in so many of those if nobody's using them while putting in a single CHAdeMO? If that CHAdeMO unit is down, tough luck for that person.

Examples I quickly found:

nor was there a Chademo adapter available for the only Tesla mass market model at the time they made the deployment plan.
So, Model X and S are not "mass market"?

Japan had a CHAdeMO adapter for his S since late 2014. It shipped in the US shortly afterward.
 
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Eno Deb

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I don't know but someone at my work seemed to be real interested in buying one. Three L3 chargers failed to work late at night - My Nissan Leaf Forum in Seattle wrote "Then why do I see Telsa's at the Chademo stations all the time using their hack adapters?"


How do you know it would be passive and less expensive? Folks with earlier Teslas who want to use Combo2 (which is not the same as Combo1 here) had to pay money to have their cars retrofitted: When can we expect to see a CCS Adapter for the Model S?. 750 euros is almost $827 USD for a retrofit with adapter.
In Germany the CCS adapter costs 500 Euros including retrofit for older cars. That's the same price as the Chademo adapter. If you have a newer car and don't need the retrofit, the adapter alone is 170 Euros.
:rolleyes: That's the usual "advantage" that CCS supporters cite. It is unnecessary because they created two unnecessary plugs when a world standard already existed and already supported V2H and V2G. It is unnecessary because at the time, no vehicles nor chargers existed supporting it. It would take years for both to appear and for years, some "supporters" (e.g. GM, Ford, FCA and VAG) were not putting any wood behind their arrow in terms of actually supporting and paying for infrastructure or being serious about DC FCing EVs.
We'll have to agree to disagree. In any case, it does not matter today because Chademo is dying in the US.
It seems like almost every time I see reports in Bolt group or YouTube channels like News Coulomb of multiple SAE Combo chargers at one location, it seems like the SAE Combo chargers (esp. at EA sites) are pretty much unused (e.g. only a lone vehicle is there, the person posting the report). Why put in so many of those if nobody's using them while putting in a single CHAdeMO?
They can do no right, can they? If they bring EVs to the market before the charger infrastructure is up and running, they get ridiculed by Tesla fanboys for the lack of foresight. If they build the infrastructure before the cars have been sold in large numbers (which is what Tesla did back in the day, BTW), they get bashed because they aren't supporting a legacy standard to said fanboys' satisfaction that only a single automaker still supports in the US.
 
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cwerdna

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they get bashed because they aren't supporting a legacy standard to said fanboys' satisfaction that only a single automaker still supports in the US.
CHAdeMO isn't a "leagcy standard". Leaf, Outlander PHEV and Teslas continue to be produced which can support CHAdeMO (Teslas with adapter). This isn't a single automaker. Per https://www.chademo.com/, there are 3200 CHAdeMO chargers in North America.

There's still an installed base of other CHAdeMO capable vehicles in the US such as the Kia Soul EV (gen 2 is delayed for the US) and the tiny set of i-MiEVs.
 

Rocky_H

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That's the usual "advantage" that CCS supporters cite. It is unnecessary because they created two unnecessary plugs when a world standard already existed and already supported V2H and V2G. It is unnecessary because at the time, no vehicles nor chargers existed supporting it.
But it is a very sensible response. It supports being able to simplify every car by only having to put one charge port in it. With CHAdeMO, it is a big bulky thing that can only do DC charging. But every EV would need some way to AC charge as well, so they have to have these huge port areas with port covers to make space for two input ports side by side, so there can also be either a J1772 (Type 1) or Mennekes (Type 2) beside the big CHAdeMO port. With CCS, it is just as big as CHAdeMO, but it is one single port that you need to fit on the car, and it can be used for AC or DC, depending on what type of handle you push into it. It is certainly more convenient and cost effective.
 

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