Electrify America general discussion

[Earl]

Yes I know about the “open patents” thing.

I blame Elon for this, I’m certain it’s a “hubris” thing that he won’t offer up the Tesla plug as a truly open standard with no strings attached. It’s a shame because the Tesla plug is so ergonomic.

Your understanding of history is severely lacking.
Years before the "open patents" thing, Tesla was very active in the J-1772 and what became the CCS standards committee before either were standardized. They were odd-person out because they were pushing for 80 amp AC charging and 250 KW DC Fast charging using the same pins but the rest of the committee was pushing to dumb charging down, first to 16 amp AC, then to 50 KW DC to guarantee a place for an ICE in any car able to do road trips.
Had Tesla gotten their way, J-1772 would have been what is now NACS and there would be no CCS Frankenplug. Even better, the infant Tesla would not have had to spend that expensive early capital developing and deploying their own system just so their products would be viable EVs. Given that was the way their hand was forced, opening up their technology was a generous act that has been badly misconstrued. The big auto industry self-servingly interpreted the "open patents" thing as a sign of Tesla's desperation to get someone else to bail there charging system out. Now naive folks, ignorant of history, grouse about it being a 'walled garden'.
It's amazing and sad how apparently intelligent people completely miss the truth of history. Be careful or you may end up having to relive it.

 

[miimura]

I can understand the technical push-back against the Tesla solution back in the day. In CCS, the AC pins only go to the on-board charger and the DC pins only go direct to the battery (with contactors to disconnect). It is a legitimately simpler solution. However, I will grant you that the Tesla solution is legitimately better. More complicated, but better.

 

[Big Earl]

Just wondering where our resident EA optimist @Mockingbird is, and what is his take on the current state of affairs with public charging?

 

[gglockner]

I can understand the technical push-back against the Tesla solution back in the day. In CCS, the AC pins only go to the on-board charger and the DC pins only go direct to the battery (with contactors to disconnect). It is a legitimately simpler solution. However, I will grant you that the Tesla solution is legitimately better. More complicated, but better.

Sometimes I wonder if the industry made the right choice to put on-board chargers inside EVs. I imagine an alternate universe where there are no EVSEs: the conversion from AC to DC is done outside the vehicle, and the vehicle only accepts DC. This would make vehicles cheaper and Level 2 chargers more expensive. This would lower costs for most consumers: some don't buy their own chargers (ex: city dwellers who park on street), while others will replace cars more often than residential Level 2 chargers. At least in this theoretical alternate universe.

 

[RTPEV]

I can understand the technical push-back against the Tesla solution back in the day. In CCS, the AC pins only go to the on-board charger and the DC pins only go direct to the battery (with contactors to disconnect). It is a legitimately simpler solution. However, I will grant you that the Tesla solution is legitimately better. More complicated, but better.

Not just that, but the CCS consortium (mostly made up of incumbent ICE car makers) at the time was actively trying to throw a monkey wrench into the EV charging scene by taking their time creating a widely accepted charging standard. They were less interested in creating a great standard than they were about putting just enough confusion out there to delay charging station manufacturers and government entities from committing to CHAdeMO. This forced Nissan to roll out their own charging network (which wasn't exactly a success). They didn't really care much about Tesla's connector because at the time they all thought Tesla would be broke in a couple of years.

 

[STS-134]

Sometimes I wonder if the industry made the right choice to put on-board chargers inside EVs. I imagine an alternate universe where there are no EVSEs: the conversion from AC to DC is done outside the vehicle, and the vehicle only accepts DC. This would make vehicles cheaper and Level 2 chargers more expensive. This would lower costs for most consumers: some don't buy their own chargers (ex: city dwellers who park on street), while others will replace cars more often than residential Level 2 chargers. At least in this theoretical alternate universe.

Would also make it impossible to buy a small, portable EVSE and put it in the trunk for road trips. You'd have to carry around a suitcase sized brick that has the ability to push 6-19 kW into the vehicle and the associated cooling components as well.

 

[Big Earl]

Sometimes I wonder if the industry made the right choice to put on-board chargers inside EVs. I imagine an alternate universe where there are no EVSEs: the conversion from AC to DC is done outside the vehicle, and the vehicle only accepts DC. This would make vehicles cheaper and Level 2 chargers more expensive. This would lower costs for most consumers: some don't buy their own chargers (ex: city dwellers who park on street), while others will replace cars more often than residential Level 2 chargers. At least in this theoretical alternate universe.

EVs (at least Teslas) can charge off of virtually any electrical receptacle right now. Not having onboard charging would seriously limit a vehicle's ability to travel where there are no charging stations. I suspect that doing it as you suggest would hurt overall adoption. Imagine the early days of Model S ownership when people were going cross-country by charging at campgrounds - would we be where we are today?

 

[gglockner]

EVs (at least Teslas) can charge off of virtually any electrical receptacle right now. Not having onboard charging would seriously limit a vehicle's ability to travel where there are no charging stations. I suspect that doing it as you suggest would hurt overall adoption. Imagine the early days of Model S ownership when people were going cross-country by charging at campgrounds - would we be where we are today?

You couldn't put it into the outboard box?

 

[Big Earl]

You couldn't put it into the outboard box?

That would require someone to build and sell portable DC chargers (they exist but are bulky and expensive). This sounds like a pretty expensive proposition considering the arguably worse economy of scale when compared to the charging system being built into the car.

 

[RTPEV]

You couldn't put it into the outboard box?

It would have been a pretty big box.

The silver box on the left is the onboard charger of the 2011 Nissan LEAF. And it supported a whopping 3.3kW! (for reference, this is behind the rear seat...it's about 9" tall and 16" wide).

Granted, technology has improved and you can probably get higher power in a smaller form factor today, but back in the day (which is the era we are talking about), this is what you would have had to lug around. Oh, and it's pretty expensive too. Even today that baby will set you back $1500. Sure, I suppose you could subtract that cost out of the cost of the car, but would you want to leave such an expensive piece of equipment lying next to your car while you are charging it at a campground or while plugged in at work?

 

[Rocky_H]

Sometimes I wonder if the industry made the right choice to put on-board chargers inside EVs.

It was absolutely the right choice. It would be a terrible idea to not include any kind of charger at all in the vehicles. Let me point out why. I hear some uninformed comments sometimes about how there "aren't any car chargers near me". And so people think you can't go to places where there aren't designated, actual Electric Car Charging Stations (TM). I have to point out that any building with electricity has outlets in it, and electricity is electricity, and with the right kind of plug, you can plug into it and charge a car from it, just like using a TV or microwave. So it doesn't put you into the straight jacket of requiring you to find a Charging Station. And this is more important if you're getting into a tight situation. And all of this is enabled because there is an onboard charger and increases the available charging locations from thousands to millions.

You couldn't put it into the outboard box?

But then you'd have to bring a furniture dolly with you to wheel it around.

 

[gglockner]

Thanks to all who set the record straight on onboard chargers. 'nuff said.

 

[Rocky_H]

Thanks to all who set the record straight on onboard chargers. 'nuff said.

Granted that there is some cost saving argument to be made about how big of an onboard charger to include. Tesla has shown they care about that in gradually reducing the onboard charging capability of their vehicles from 80A to 72A to 48A. But there has to be a bare minimum of something there to plug into a basic outlet as needed in an absolute emergency if that's all you have.

 

[STS-134]

Granted that there is some cost saving argument to be made about how big of an onboard charger to include. Tesla has shown they care about that in gradually reducing the onboard charging capability of their vehicles from 80A to 72A to 48A.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Cybertruck bumps that back up to at least 60A if not 80A, given the much larger battery size. There's a reason why I insisted on having a 200A subpanel just for the cars that is entirely separate from the 200A subpanel for the house. In the future, we might see 80A OBCs. Heck, Rivian and Lucid already make cars with them.

 

[Rocky_H]

Wouldn't be surprised if the Cybertruck bumps that back up to at least 60A if not 80A, given the much larger battery size. There's a reason why I insisted on having a 200A subpanel just for the cars that is entirely separate from the 200A subpanel for the house. In the future, we might see 80A OBCs.

They won't. That's been brought up in the Cybertruck section of the forum, and I'm 110% certain that is not going to happen. Tesla made that decision when they decided to kill the excellent Gen2 wall connectors that did provide 80A and replace them with the steaming pile of garbage Gen3 ones that were less capable and can only provide 48A. They have decided that high power AC charging isn't useful, and that people should just go use a Supercharger if they wat something faster.

I think it's a terrible idea, but it's what they did. They should have kept with two options. Make the default one small, like they are doing to save on very high volume costs, but always keep a high power option like 80 or 72A for the people that really do need it.

 

[MP3Mike]

Wouldn't be surprised if the Cybertruck bumps that back up to at least 60A if not 80A, given the much larger battery size.

The largest EVSE they currently sell is 48A. Though maybe they will introduce a higher power one with the Cybertruck? (I doubt it.)

If you want faster charging at home get a 25kW CCS charger: Products - EV Charging - Delta Americas

That will only set you back like $20k. (I think you can get a 40kW for a similar price.)

 

[Earl]

Sometimes I wonder if the industry made the right choice to put on-board chargers inside EVs.

That was the big debate throughout the 1990's.
Personally, I can see both sides and am not sure either solution is all right or all wrong.

But then you'd have to bring a furniture dolly with you to wheel it around.

FWIW, I did mount our EV1 charger (it had an external charger) on a hand truck for just that reason.

 

[lynyrdM]

Such foresight

That post did age poorly thankfully. I’m glad to see NACS released as a standard

 

[Hiline]

They were odd-person out because they were pushing for 80 amp AC charging and 250 KW DC Fast charging using the same pins but the rest of the committee was pushing to dumb charging down, first to 16 amp AC, then to 50 KW DC to guarantee a place for an ICE in any car able to do road trips.

Sorry would you mind elaborating on this a bit? What does an EV charger have to do with an internal combustion engine?

 

[cwerdna]

In the future, we might see 80A OBCs. Heck, Rivian and Lucid already make cars with them.

Tesla did ages ago for North America with the Model S. You could equip it twin OBCs for 80 amps of charging. Some versions (Signature?) came with 80 amps of OBC.