Elon: FSD Beta tweets

[Knightshade]

Are you talking about this 49 U.S. Code § 30120 - Remedies for defects and noncompliance ?
If so, I could use an education on which part says can't say software recall versus vehicle recall. Or something similar. For example vehicle software recall.
I was not able to spot definition(s) you mentioned.

There is no such thing in the law as a "software recall"

Just a recall.

That's the point. The law does not distinguish...nor care...if the recall is physical or not. And as noted, until Tesla (and STILL for other brands) software recalls can ALSO be physical ones.

If there is a defect, you issue a recall, and you resolve it with one of the remedy options listed. Software, hardware, OTA, in person, no distinctions between these exist legally for the NHTSA.

You'd need to change the law to add a new category that currently does not exist.

 

[DanCar]

There is no such thing in the law as a "software recall"

Just a recall.

That's the point. The law does not distinguish...nor care...if the recall is physical or not. And as noted, until Tesla (and STILL for other brands) software recalls can ALSO be physical ones.

If there is a defect, you issue a recall, and you resolve it with one of the remedy options listed. Software, hardware, OTA, in person, no distinctions between these exist legally for the NHTSA.

You'd need to change the law to add a new category that currently does not exist.

You are contradicting your earlier claim that it has to be called a vehicle recall, which is a lie. According to your statements above it is fine to call it a vehicle software recall, since it is "just a recall".

 

[Knightshade]

You are contradicting your earlier claim that it has to be called a vehicle recall, which is a lie. According to your statements above it is fine to call it a vehicle software recall, since it is "just a recall".

Uh...what?

Where did I say "it has to be called a vehicle recall"?

So no, I didn't contradict anything, and there's no lie.

All ~362k Teslas covered are currently subject to an open recall.

If you'd like the EXACT definition of an open recall that's in the stuff I linked to as well-

(2)Definition of open recall.—
In this subsection, the term “open recall” means a recall for which a notification by a manufacturer has been provided under section 30119 and that has not been remedied under this section.

Tesla has provided a recall notification. Fact.
Tesla has not yet remedied the issue. Fact.

Thus 362,758 tesla vehicles are currently subject to an open recall. Fact.

Nothing in the law distinguishes if the recall requires physically touching the car and there's no distinction for SW vs HW either. Fact.

Where's the lie again?

 

[DanCar]

I stated that it is a lie to call it a "vehicle recall", since no vehicles are being recalled. You said you it has to called that way per the law, which is false.

 

[Knightshade]

I stated that it is a lie to call it a "vehicle recall"

Well, no, you did not.

Your ACTUAL words were "Which vehicles are being recalled because of FSD? None."

Which is of course untrue.

, since no vehicles are being recalled. You said you it has to called that way per the law, which is false.

Except as I pointed out, Tesla currently has at least 362,758 vehicles with an open safety recall regarding FSDb.... (more of course, since there are other recalls not yet fully closed... the trunk harness one for example lots of owners still haven't had resolved despite it being from 2021 at this point...)

Nothing in the law requires the vehicle to physically go anywhere for it to be subject to a recall.

Which part is still confusing you, specifically?

 

[cantchoosename]

Why is everyone getting so upset over what the fix is called? Recall, software update...why does anyone care? I've received several letters in the mail from Tesla over the years saying my car was subject to a recall which has been corrected with an OTA update. Why wasn't anyone making a fuss about it years ago when this happened? It seems like everyone is just super sensitive when it comes to FSD beta. Everyone is just arguing semantics and it seems like this happens every time anything negative is ever publicized about Tesla. A recall is a recall...something needs to be fixed and there needs to be a remedy for it. I don't care what they call it and I'm just enjoying my car and whatever FSDb version I have. Can this thread please get back on topic now?

 

[JulienW]

Why is everyone getting so upset over what the fix is called? Recall, software update...why does anyone care?...

Because WHAT the HELL else do we have to do right now, bitch about V11 coming next week or so?

 

[cantchoosename]

Because WHAT the HELL else do we have to do right now, bitch about V11 coming next week or so?

Hahaha, it's always coming next week. We'll all be on our deathbeds and wishing for one more week just so we can test V11 because Elon said it was almost ready.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Well, no, you did not.

Your ACTUAL words were "Which vehicles are being recalled because of FSD? None."

Which is of course untrue.




Except as I pointed out, Tesla currently has at least 362,758 vehicles with an open recall regarding FSDb.... (more of course, since there are other recalls not yet fully closed... the trunk harness one for example lots of owners still haven't had resolved despite it being from 2021 at this point...)

Nothing in the law requires the vehicle to physically go anywhere for it to be subject to a recall.

Which part is still confusing you, specifically?

What's more, it's not simply that it's OK because OTA will take care of it, but if for some reason the OTA update doesn't work, Tesla would _have_ _to_ take it in to get it fixed.

 

[2101Guy]

The idea that persons are THAT behind-hurt over the semantics of the "recall". How it should only be a recall if you have to take it to a dealership/service center. Not that its due to a DEFECT in the product. But because it should be called something else if it can be resolved via software push or via mobile ranger. If it can be fixed via those two methods, it should not be labeled a "recall".

WHAT IN THE WORLD?

 

[Dewg]

Why is everyone getting so upset over what the fix is called? Recall, software update...why does anyone care? I've received several letters in the mail from Tesla over the years saying my car was subject to a recall which has been corrected with an OTA update. Why wasn't anyone making a fuss about it years ago when this happened? It seems like everyone is just super sensitive when it comes to FSD beta. Everyone is just arguing semantics and it seems like this happens every time anything negative is ever publicized about Tesla. A recall is a recall...something needs to be fixed and there needs to be a remedy for it. I don't care what they call it and I'm just enjoying my car and whatever FSDb version I have. Can this thread please get back on topic now?

My favorite is getting the letter in the mail about a recall that was fixed months ago via OTA. What a waste of resources to print, stuff the envelope, postage, and my time to read.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Because WHAT the HELL else do we have to do right now, bitch about V11 coming next week or so?

So, see any good movies lately?

 

[Silicon Desert]

Interestingly, I’ve found the efficiency to be far better than I expected when using FSD, in spite of the behaviors you describe.

yes that is interesting. Perhaps the difference might be that newer cars have more regen efficiency than my 5 year old MX since I notice on the newer S that I don't have as much of a problem. You got me to thinking that might be the reason.

 

[JulienW]

So, see any good movies lately?

Total Recall where Elon disguises himself to escape to Mars but still can't escape his "two weeks" phrase. At lease we have Johnny Cab.

 

[sleepydoc]

NHTSA should replace the outdated "recall" nomenclature with something like Hardware Modification Order (HMO) and Software Modification Order (SMO).

In general, recalls are for issues that are either safety related, or for the car not complying with regulatory standards (that are also most often safety related.) Historically, that did require an actual 'recall' for hardware modifications. As an example, our Honda Odyssey was recalled because the rear seat latches could come loose in certain circumstances and the dealer needed to install a small clip on the retaining bar.

Because of this, the term 'recall' is generally associated with a hardware defect or design flaw, implying poor engineering. Many recalls were also associated with significant accidents and deaths (remember the Ford Explorer/Firestone fiasco?)

More recently, as cars have become more computer-driven, recalls have involved firmware updates rather than hardware fixes, but still involved a trip to the dealer but in Tesla's case that's not even necessary. Last year there was a recall because the annoying seatbelt chime wouldn't always bing when you started the car without having your seatbelt fastened. I actually considered that a feature, not a bug, but the NHTSA thought otherwise. Either way, a recall to fix a software bug is not in the same category as a faulty fuel line that can cause an explosion but they all fall under the same parlance for the NHTSA.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Why is everyone getting so upset over what the fix is called? Recall, software update...why does anyone care?

The reason why this is such an inflamed debate is not really because of first-principles bickering over semantics. True, there are some people who love that, or just love to score points against forum opponents, but those aren't the origins of the debate.

The reason this has become such an issue is that it opens the gate for misleading news headlines and TV "business" coverage. The word may be innocent and legally appropriate, but it's being used to sensationalize otherwise minor, easily fixed or even already fixed Tesla issues, over and over again.

To this end (negative publicity or market FUD), it's very helpful that the word "recall" does imply a costly, embarrassing and inconvenient procedure to remedy an unintended design or manufacturing flaw - not a painless OTA update based on a review with internal engineers or external regulators. That's the reason some people would like to see a change to the terminology.

 

[AndrewZ]

The reason why this is such an inflamed debate is not really because of first-principles bickering over semantics. True, there are some people who love that, or just love to score points against forum opponents, but those aren't the origins of the debate.

The reason this has become such an issue is that it opens the gate for misleading news headlines and TV "business" coverage. The word may be innocent and legally appropriate, but it's being used to sensationalize otherwise minor, easily fixed or even already fixed Tesla issues, over and over again.

To this end (negative publicity or market FUD), it's very helpful that the word "recall" does imply a costly, embarrassing and inconvenient procedure to remedy an unintended design or manufacturing flaw - not a painless OTA update based on a review with internal engineers or external regulators. That's the reason some people would like to see a change to the terminology.

These problems have existed for as long as FSD Beta, pretty humorous to characterize this as a painless OTA update based on a review with internal engineers or external regulators.

The NHTSA moved on this the day of Tesla's earnings release where they recognized revenue from the FSD portion of the purchases, and I'm thinking that's probably not a coincidence. I think the NHTSA is setting up for this potentially being costly if it's not remedied quickly with updates and other methods are required.


With initiation of the recall, the NHTSA has effectively set a timer on when these issues need to be addressed before further action will be taken -- that's a big part of the recall process. It's worth reading through their brochure about the procedures:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-mvsdefectsandrecalls_041619-v2-tag.pdf

 

[mtndrew1]

Any recent tweets to suggest that v11 is still dropping “this week” to early testers? Only one day left.

 

[JulienW]

Any recent tweets to suggest that v11 is still dropping “this week” to early testers? Only one day left.

Next week is the NEW this week.

 

[mtndrew1]

Next week is the NEW this week.

Oh no then what the heck was last week?!