Not necessarily. Only those items that break and are reported by you.
During maintenance, they go through the list.
And as to errors and faults, I'm not talking about the ones visible to you. I'm talking about the early indications of other faults.
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During maintenance, they go through the list.
And as to errors and faults, I'm not talking about the ones visible to you. I'm talking about the early indications of other faults.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
No, that wasn't your point. What you said was:
No, they aren't taking $100 in parts and marking it up to $400. But that's what you keep saying over and over again. The SC is taking the TIME to install those parts as well as do the tear down and full inspection. I get paid for the work I do. Perhaps you work for free and you expect Tesla to do the same for you?
So let's take your Mercedes-Benz dealer as an example. When I had a MB, the dealer hourly shop rate was $135 per hour. If the Tesla SC takes just two hours (which it doesn't, it takes much longer), than the cost of the parts and just labor alone is $370.
Is the service plan expensive compared to other makes? Maybe, I won't argue that. But are you getting value for what you paid? Yes, absolutely. I take my MS on many long road trips, and I like to know that Tesla has taken the TIME to go thoroughly go over the car and ensure that it is in top running order so I am confident that it doesn't leave me stranded by the side of the road. You are not going to get that for your "do it yourself at home for $100" inspection.
Just one preventable breakdown on a road trip could cost way more than $400 in lost time, hassle, towing, hotels, and overall trip delays, ESPECIALLY if the car has to be towed to the nearest service center which could be hundreds of miles away.
Tesla is anal about contacting owners when the telemetry detects a failure BEFORE it happens, and making appropriate repairs as soon as possible. The same thing is true during an annual inspection for any preventative maintenance issues they might find which aren't transmitted via the telemetry. You are not going to get that for your "do it yourself at home for $100" inspection.
So please, I beg you, please stop saying that the Tesla Annual Inspection is only worth $100 in wiper blades and batteries.
Yes, Tesla is different, and yes, the Model S needs less maintenance than an ICE car. But that doesn't mean it needs ZERO maintenance. I posted this in another thread, but when the car was promoted as not needing a lot of maintenance, it was for things like this:
- Water Pump
- Fuel Filter
- Fuel Pump
- Transmission repair/rebuild
- Thermostat
- Alternator Repair/Replace
- Starter Replace
- Serpentine Belt(s)
- Timing Belt/Timing Chain
- Valve adjustments
- Fuel injectors replace or unclog
- Radiator flush/repair/replace
- Exhaust Repair/replace
- Oil changes/Air filters
- Steering pump and hoses
- O2 Sensors
- Mass Air-Flow Sensors
- Catalytic Converter Replace
None of those things will ever need maintenance on a Model S or X.
A once-per-year Annual Inspection for $400 is way less than you'll spend repairing any of those components on an ICE vehicle.
During an unrelated SC visit, they proactively fixed issues that I had not reported (presumably from their TSB) or weren't broken (yet).
It may be a good strategy to fix issues while they have the car "in their hands", both from a financial standpoint but also customer satisfaction.
Cyclone
Cyclonic Member ((.oO))
Meanwhile, I'm under warranty and have had my car looked at 3 times because it was cold and it took me providing the TSB # provided by another member for them to see my VIN needed an updated floor vent on the driver side since the trim panel was blocking most of the vent. My car also still has the original defrost screens rather than more ICE-traditional vents, but maybe that is one of the ones I need to ask for. The screen works fine for me, so I'm happy with it staying as it is.
It would be amazing if these TSBs were actually publicly searchable and I could check to see if any of them would be worthwhile to apply to me car. My toes very much appreciated the trim being updated!
Another change to the manual. It used to say:
"Although Tesla does not require you to perform all service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to improper maintenance, service or repairs."
Which is in my downloaded copy that I saved.
But it is not longer in the copy in the "my tesla" documents section.
However, that is the law, so even if they remove it, they can't required you perform the scheduled maintenance at a Tesla facility.
This contradicts their statement on page 134:
"Model S must be serviced by Tesla-certifiedtechnicians. Damages or failures caused by
maintenance or repairs performed by non-
Tesla certified technicians are not covered by
the warranty."
But that part in bold is simply false.
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If that were the case, then people would flood in complaining about all problems that are fixed by TSBs.
Is there ANY way at all to get a list of the TSBs for Tesla like you can with any other manufacturer?
"Although Tesla does not require you to perform all service or repairs at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty may be voided or coverage may be excluded due to improper maintenance, service or repairs."
Which is in my downloaded copy that I saved.
But it is not longer in the copy in the "my tesla" documents section.
However, that is the law, so even if they remove it, they can't required you perform the scheduled maintenance at a Tesla facility.
This contradicts their statement on page 134:
"Model S must be serviced by Tesla-certifiedtechnicians. Damages or failures caused by
maintenance or repairs performed by non-
Tesla certified technicians are not covered by
the warranty."
But that part in bold is simply false.
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If that were the case, then people would flood in complaining about all problems that are fixed by TSBs.
Is there ANY way at all to get a list of the TSBs for Tesla like you can with any other manufacturer?
rxlawdude
Active Member
I guess I wasn't clear enough for you: warranty law prohibits denial of repairs merely because the consumer didn't follow the maintenance schedule. Obviously (DUH!), if you fail to change engine oil or coolant, any failure of said engine would legitimately be denied. But failure to have the 12.5K mile service (or any interval) on the Tesla cannot be used to deny the WARRANTY failure of the main display, handles, or any other electronic component (let's face it, the expensive parts), as these de facto require no maintenance per se. Similarly, because there is no scheduled service on the drive units (except for the inverter coolant changes), failure to have the car serviced at 12,500 miles (service interval for coolant is 25,000 miles, I believe) cannot be a basis for denying a failure of the DU.
The ESA is governed by its terms, as warranty law is not applicable.
I really wish that people unfamiliar with the application of the law would stop proclaiming correct information "false" because someone "looked it up on the Internet."
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Ulmo
Active Member
Wait a minute. I see this as their way to August the SuperCharger network:
1. Don't warranty their products after a short time (50,000 miles, or whatever).
2. Turn the value of the really old cars (2012-2013) into so little that they cost more to repair than to buy.
3. Force out of warranty low value cars into the third party repair market (because of the price points of vehicle value vs. repair cost). All parts are from salvage and third party sources, manufacturers, alternate suppliers.
4. Because of #3, cancel SuperCharger certification for those cars.
Bingo! SuperCharger For Life is dead. It's only SuperCharger until out of warranty repairs stack up so high you can't possibly keep up by using the in-dealer* network. This puts a cap on the SuperCharger network, so that they can decide to cancel it in the future (for new contracts).
Unfortunately, we still can't value Total Cost of Ownership unless always selling before warranty expires, because a healthy third party repair network hasn't been fully established yet, but thankfully it's on its way.
This opens up an opportunity to build out a nationwide third party SuperCharger network usage-charged for cars that aren't Tesla controlled and thus have no SuperCharger access. Right now there are only dozens of cars that would use it. In the future, it could be tens of thousands, and much further in the future, it could be hundreds of thousands, but by then, competition would be stiff and there wouldn't be much margin. Tesla wants to keep the 30% margins for itself.
A third party charging network could open up at the third party repair shops. They could wire large solar power arrays into large battery storage arrays that directly DC charge the Teslas at maximum DC charging speed.
They can recycle Tesla batteries, Tesla cars, Tesla parts, and use solar power to do it, and be "greener" than Tesla Mothership. I wonder what kind of government credits and support they could get for all of this recycling and environmentalism.
* If they're going to act more like a traditional car company, I feel OK using traditional car company terminology.
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HankLloydRight
No Roads
There's no way they could do that without the worst PR storm in decades. Worse than "New Coke".
I paid $2000 for lifetime (of the car) Supercharger access. There were no conditions on that. They can't revoke it willy-nilly.
Ulmo
Active Member
It should:
1. All used Teslas will be lower value. CPO will be competing with that.
2. CPO will have warranties available that non-CPO's won't. Non-CPO will be competing with that.
One is an up push, and the other is a down push. Certainly not "won't affect". Perhaps it will be a near wash, though.
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I've been waiting a long time for this.
I don't see it. How does the lack of warranty on one car affect the value of a car that does have a warranty?
Ulmo
Active Member
Right. My point. Many cars will get to the stage that they are disowned by Tesla, like they currently do with salvaged cars. Yours probably will be grandfathered because of the explicitness of contract.
I am excited to see the 3rd party repair network start up and see how that pans out. You're saying those cars still should be supercharge enabled? If so, I misread the situation, and 3rd party repairs will be OK to maintain SuperCharge enabled cars, but salvaged vehicles won't have SuperCharge access (without impossible recertification, so legally they say "but it is allowed" even though they've never done it to date by anybody I've read about). This means any maintenance done by, and parts put in by, 3rd party repair shops, including salvage parts, knock-off parts, re-engineered parts, parts that attempt to perform similar function, etc. will be OK for SuperCharger access to be maintained.
Ulmo
Active Member
Because a buyer who wants a car will be able to get a lower priced car without warranty than they would have before, which would do a bunch of things:
- It would dry up availability of lower priced cars, creating scarcity, and making CPOs more valuable.
- It would take away sales from Model 3 to the folks who prefer a S/X, possibly giving Tesla the idea to lower CPO value to catch that.
- It would increase sales of Model 3 to compensate for lack of cheap S/X on the market.
- It would make the cost of used S/X go down. Someone who wanted a cheaper S/X would get it non-CPO as a result, increasing CPO inventory until CPO came down in price in order to reduce inventory.
- The increased activity in the now lower-priced used non-CPO market would make it possibly more attractive to sellers than trade-in or selling to Tesla for their CPO program, reducing availability of CPO (thus making CPO less interesting of an option and more scarce, one down one up), and also competing with Tesla's ability to offer more CPO vehicles, thus making it harder for Tesla to sell CPO overall, and they might want to beef up their CPO program by making it more attractive, and at the same time, a more vibrant non-CPO used market could cause competition in that market that makes prices go down and up there separately from CPO.
Perhaps Tesla could part out their non-selling CPOs to a 3rd party repair network.
Anyway, to me, it seems like it has a lot of potential impacts. I don't know whether it's up or down, but it certainly seems anything other than "no impact".
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I was thinking more about this last night - I wonder if Tesla has a lot of buyback lemons that they had to get rid of - so they sold them through an auction and they don't want to deal with them in the future -- they might be driving this post warranty not supported by Tesla thread. If so I wonder how many buybacks are floating around in the used market. Do they have to disclose lemon buybacks? is it marked on the title?
rxlawdude
Active Member
All that is based on the assumption that many or most people buying used private sale Teslas were previously buying the ESA and transferring it.
When I was selling mine, not a single person asked or even mentioned anything about the ESA. I know that just one can, but I really don't think transferable ESA is nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be.
CPOs car already had the advantage of the extended warranty. That has been, and will continue to be, the main reason for buying CPO, since they are generally higher priced than private sales.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Nope. CPO cars DO NOT have the ESA, and are not eligible. What you get is a 50K mile, 4 year WARRANTY from the mileage on the vehicle at purchase time.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I didn't realize that - I thought it kicked in when the 4 year 50K bumper to bumper expired. So you are really only getting the same warranty you get when buying new (minus the expended 8 year unlimited powertrain warranty).
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Yeah, if CPO cars got the CPO warranty AND the ESA, that would be a game changer. They sure would sell a lot more CPOs then they're moving now. And the added cost of the ESA is most likely less than the extended inventory holding cost of the CPO cars they aren't selling.
Your move, Tesla.
Your move, Tesla.
Well if the CPO is high mileage (40K+) cars that's about the same as the ESA. Even on low mile cars, it's as much warrantee as people got when they bought the car new. which is enough for most people.
That has always been a CPO advantage for higher mileage cars, as buying an ESA would add $4000 to the private sale price. For low mileage cars, ESA is not really as necessary since people are usually happy just having time/miles left on the warrantee as piece of mind when buying used from a private seller.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
That would make a huge difference to me - CPO would be really worth something and it would nail the speculation on reliability.
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