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shrspeedblade
Rideshare Monkey
So, I can either have a vehicle that is far more convenient for me 99% of the time (charge at home every night) and runs off 100% renewable power, or I can have one that is slightly more convenient for me 1% of the time (road trips with shorter stops/lunch breaks) whose environmental impact is debatable but probably still not as good as an EV?
If EVs had been around for the last 100 years we would be laughing at the debate even, and gasoline power would be for niche vehicles.
I wonder if part of the issue is that at-home charging is more of a challenge for a greater percentage of the population than here in North America. Still, it seems like the vastly shorter driving distances would mean most people could get by charging with 120v wall chargers- the cheapest solution of all!- and just use DCFC on longer trips.
If they want to use hydrogen so bad, use it to power turbines to supply electricity for the grid!
If EVs had been around for the last 100 years we would be laughing at the debate even, and gasoline power would be for niche vehicles.
I wonder if part of the issue is that at-home charging is more of a challenge for a greater percentage of the population than here in North America. Still, it seems like the vastly shorter driving distances would mean most people could get by charging with 120v wall chargers- the cheapest solution of all!- and just use DCFC on longer trips.
If they want to use hydrogen so bad, use it to power turbines to supply electricity for the grid!
At only a 3 times increase in fuel price (best case, not actual which is currently 10x)
Arg, no! Hydrogen is a FUEL not a ENERGY SOURCE. It is a convenient (or not) means of carrying or storing energy. Creating it requires more grid electricity than you would get from it.
Thank you kindly.
shrspeedblade
Rideshare Monkey
So you really believe, that if hydrogen is ever readily available (the fact that they're basically giving away right now is not an intellectually honest argument, unless you don't want to acknowledge we live in a free market economy) it will be 3-10x cheaper than powering an EV, putting it up to around 1000mpge? Since we're well into the realm of the theoretical now (for hydrogen, that is) I'll just politely say I disagree with your assertion.
I agree, hydrogen is not really an energy source and is questionable as a fuel unless we can get it directly from the sun like a certain other "fuel" that is already readily available.
And why argue, as I basically just admitted EVs are frequently "hydrogen powered" LOL!
Thank YOU kindly.
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NO. You have it exactly backwards of what I said (or tried to say). Hydrogen has a basic efficiency of about 1/3 that of batteries, therefore as a fuel it can never be cheaper than 3 times the price of electricity.
Thank you kindly.
p.s. We don't live in a free market economy.
Hydrogen cars is one of those things where I wish I could bet it would end nowhere, It just would be free money
Just like the new Nissan Leaf
Just like the new Nissan Leaf
This is the reason there will be a market for hydrogen:
Tow Test Recap - 2016 Tesla Model X Long-Term Road Test
Lots of people out there that like their pick-up trucks and large SUVs, and want (key term: want) to be able to tow/haul heavy loads over large distances without the inconvenience stopping to charge for an hour+ at a time. There's a reason why Nikola is doing a fuel cell based system with their class 8 long haul trucks.
Additionally, the multi-use dwelling (MUDs) is still and will be an issue, despite Tesla's current efforts. They alone cannot support a market with 20, 30, 40+% of new vehicle sales being BEVs. Batteries, while efficient at end to end delivery of electricity, are not as good as hydrogen on a mass efficiency basis. Not to mention that liquid/gas chemical storage of energy for transportation beat out batteries a long time ago. There would have to be some fundamental changes in battery chemistry to bridge the mass efficiency gap (and refill time issue). And, its not like fuel cell technology (or internal combustion technology for that matter) is sitting static. That being said, BEVs have, and continue to prove that they can meet the needs of so many people. But, adhering to the "Elon said it, so it must be true" logic is a short sided path to follow in my opinion.
Tow Test Recap - 2016 Tesla Model X Long-Term Road Test
Lots of people out there that like their pick-up trucks and large SUVs, and want (key term: want) to be able to tow/haul heavy loads over large distances without the inconvenience stopping to charge for an hour+ at a time. There's a reason why Nikola is doing a fuel cell based system with their class 8 long haul trucks.
Additionally, the multi-use dwelling (MUDs) is still and will be an issue, despite Tesla's current efforts. They alone cannot support a market with 20, 30, 40+% of new vehicle sales being BEVs. Batteries, while efficient at end to end delivery of electricity, are not as good as hydrogen on a mass efficiency basis. Not to mention that liquid/gas chemical storage of energy for transportation beat out batteries a long time ago. There would have to be some fundamental changes in battery chemistry to bridge the mass efficiency gap (and refill time issue). And, its not like fuel cell technology (or internal combustion technology for that matter) is sitting static. That being said, BEVs have, and continue to prove that they can meet the needs of so many people. But, adhering to the "Elon said it, so it must be true" logic is a short sided path to follow in my opinion.
Actually, the only reason I have a pickup (aside from the occasional 10mi round trip to the dump or lumberyard) is for long distance towing. Do I "need" to? Well, no, not in the sense that I "need" food, water, and shelter. But then, I don't "need" a Tesla, either.
I have a hard time seeing how the market for large trucks with high towing capacities is a large enough to support a hydrogen distribution system.
roblab
Active Member
Don't know. But roughly two-thirds of people live in detached houses, and I wonder how many of those could get an outlet near the car. Most folk have to figure on getting an outlet installed.
I also wonder about the demographics of who buys a Tesla. I would guess those folk generally have more money than average, and those folk don't generally rent or live in apartments.
In my experience, Tesla tries to figure all this out before they sell you a car. Some apartment dwellers have gotten outlets installed near where they park.
If all one can figure is that they will have to go to a supercharger to get a charge, my recommendation is that you don't buy one. Or move. As you infer, it will get way worse.
Actually, real long haul trucks have a range of several times what Tesla's truck will do (last I heard, they were talking 200-300 miles). 300 gallons of diesel gives you 1000 miles or better.
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
Geeze, lighten up; no need to get snippy. I was just pointing out that their announced range was significantly less than what current over-the-road big rigs can do. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
If it were the famous board game Clue, the solution to the mystery would be as follows...
"Professor Musk killed Mr. Hydrogen in the Marketplace with a Model 3."
"Professor Musk killed Mr. Hydrogen in the Marketplace with a Model 3."
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My point is that physics makes hydrogen advantageous on long haul, heavy vehicles against current battery technology. How many miles has Tesla said they'll get? The rumor is maybe 300 miles? How many kWh will it take for a 80,000lb truck and trailer combo to do 500+ miles? What about 1500 miles like some current long haul tractors? Protrerra just did 1100 miles with 660kWh in a lighter vehicle at probably some sort of optimum speed. That equals an efficiency of 1.67mi/kWh. Lets say the the semi does 1kWh/mi with an 80k travel weight. That would require 1500kWh of battery (with no buffer). Using 160Wh/kg pack level mass density (class leading right now), you're at 9,375kg (20,668 lbs) just for the battery pack. That doesn't include the cab, electric motor assemblies, or all the drivetrain and other things. Current Volvo tractors weigh 13k to 18k pounds, which leaves room for 62k to 67k of payload. At best, that's likely dropped 52.5k or so with a long haul BEV setup. Fuel cell setups do not suffer from the same linear increase in energy storage weight that BEVs do.
What does the charging distribution need to look like to handle a fleet of transport trucks? What's the point grid load on a station with a bunch of truck operators hooked up and charging at 500kW? Lets say you have 10 stalls like some of the Pilot stations I've seen. That's 5MW of continuous power. Dwell times for the trucks would be over 3 hours from empty.
Year Wrap-Up: Who Sells More? 2016 Pickup Truck Sales Report (USA) - The Fast Lane Truck
Almost 2.25 million full size pick-up trucks were sold in 2016 alone. Tesla has a national Supercharger network for roughly 150k vehicles or so. The new Clarity Fuel Cell can do 366 miles on 5.46kg of hydrogen. That's about 67 mi/kg. For sake of argument, lets say that full size pickups can do 50mi/kg. 2.25 million trucks x ~12k mi/yr (~national average) x 50 mi/kg is about 1.35 billion kg of H2 per year, or about 3.7 million kg of H2 per day. That's only for new yearly new vehicles sold. Does not include large SUVs, other full size pickups in the fleet, or even medium size trucks and SUVs. Even at 10% of that volume, that's a significant volume of H2 production.
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