Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[bhzmark]

They are not the only company that has AEB systems that won't bring the car to a dead stop with speeds above 30 mph,or the only one that will cancel if the driver hits the brake...so try to hide your negative Tesla slant a bit.

Tesla is the only car company that does a lot of stuff. They ought to be the only car company that does AEB the best way. Even in other cars they will brake more forcefully along with the driver braking if the driver doesn't brake forcefully enough. I think that should be an easy fix that driver braking shouldn't disengage AEB braking when it has a solid collision detected and the driver is not braking forcefully enough.

As the for only 25mph decreased and the inability to categorize a US semi with no side protection as a collision instead of low clearance tunnel or parking garage, I can see both of those being hard problems to solve. What if you are coming up on low clearance tunnel or building entrance, perhaps at the top of a hill. Do you really want the car to come to a screaching halt with a small chance of a false positive? this is a tough nut to crack. I think since the false positive problem isn't completely solved, they made the call to leave the total speed decrease at only 25 mph to minimize damage from false positives. I see the reasoning behind that decision, but hope as the risk of false positives decreases that they can allow braking to a total stop.

 

[KZKZ]

They are not the only company that has AEB systems that won't bring the car to a dead stop with speeds above 30 mph,or the only one that will cancel if the driver hits the brake...so try to hide your negative Tesla slant a bit.

If you're satisfied with such a limited and old fashioned AEB system, that's great for you.

Personally, I would prefer functionality that was up to date, especially if paying as much as a S or X cost. The 25 mph reduction limitation is just one of the issues, others include stationary vehicle detection and crossing traffic detection.

It still seems a little odd to me that Tesla would be using such a limited, early-vintage AEB system and also claiming to be at the cutting edge of safety tech. Those two items don't reconcile in my book.

 

[KZKZ]

Elon would have no regrets:

"Musk on if he has any regrets about rolling out autopilot the way Tesla did: No, I think we did the right thing. I think we improved people’s safety, not just in fatalities but also injuries. We can see how it actually reduces impact velocity. It can reduce impact from 76 miles per hour to 46 miles an hour. That’s massive.

"

Why is Musk referring to AEB as AP ? No wonder everyone is confused about the difference.

Wouldn't AEB reducing impact speed from 76mph to 0 be better than 76 to 46mph? 46mph is faster than NHTSA's 35mph frontal impact tests.

 

[Az_Rael]

Why is Musk referring to AEB as AP ? No wonder everyone is confused about the difference.

Yes, and there was all the talk by Musk of "Autopilot Safety Features" being included on all Model 3's. That was apparently referring to the AEB, collision warnings, etc.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Why is Musk referring to AEB as AP ? No wonder everyone is confused about the difference.

Wouldn't AEB reducing impact speed from 76mph to 0 be better than 76 to 46mph? 46mph is faster than NHTSA's 35mph frontal impact tests.

Technical people buy Teslas and Non-Technical people buy Teslas. When Elon speaks to EVERYONE....he uses generic terms that he believes Everyone understands. Probably hoping that technical people can make necessary and accurate changes to his vernacular without a whole lot of complaining. Kinda like when people say that Xeroxed a copy when there is no Xerox machine around.

76 to 0 would be better, however in what period of time would you suggest that occur? 1 second? 10 seconds? With enough force to activate antilock brakes?

Below is a conversation that I had with a NTSB person. Instead of re-typing it all....I'll just link to it.

Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, and there was all the talk by Musk of "Autopilot Safety Features" being included on all Model 3's. That was apparently referring to the AEB, collision warnings, etc.

Auto Pilot and safety are 2 separate things. One is a feature and the other is a function. They really work well together.

However if you want a "flawless" system.....it hasn't been born yet....including humans.

Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

 

[1208]

I still think the one of the biggests fault here is the lack of Mansfield bars on the trailer. I thought it was a legal requirement.

 

[Garlan Garner]

If you're satisfied with such a limited and old fashioned AEB system, that's great for you.

Personally, I would prefer functionality that was up to date, especially if paying as much as a S or X cost. The 25 mph reduction limitation is just one of the issues, others include stationary vehicle detection and crossing traffic detection.

It still seems a little odd to me that Tesla would be using such a limited, early-vintage AEB system and also claiming to be at the cutting edge of safety tech. Those two items don't reconcile in my book.

Old Fashioned? Who says that it's Old Fashioned?

Some of the most intelligent people on the earth are Old people. I said intelligent, not smart.

The 25 mph reduction does not exist because AEB is not capable.

Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

 

[Electroman]

KZKZ: Then don't buy it. This is not for you. Why are you wasting your time here?

The $100k you are referring to is mostly for an excellent smooth electric drive and with a range that enables cross country road trips, with high speed supercharging capability which you other favorite automakers don't have. Why don't you go to those forms and complain about that anemic torque they all have.

I find it silly that folks pay $80k for a BMW SUV that has half the torque as a Tesla X.

Tesla safety record is proven beyond any doubt, even it may have scope to improve on AEB.

And also you are wrong that AEB won't come to a full stop. It does under certain a cicrumcrtsmces and doesn't In some other. There are videos that has saved impending collisions by coming to a full stop.

And I doubt other automakers are any different. I haven't heard of a car on the road today that wil come to a full stop from say 80mph in all circumstances.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I still think the one of the biggests fault here is the lack of Mansfield bars on the trailer. I thought it was a legal requirement.

I would guarantee that if the driver was following directions of AP - this wouldn't have happened.

Very rarely does anyone drive smack into the side of a truck without slowing down. Outside of someone attempting suicide....I can't recall any normally functioning driver doing this.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

If you're satisfied with such a limited and old fashioned AEB system, that's great for you.

Personally, I would prefer functionality that was up to date, especially if paying as much as a S or X cost. The 25 mph reduction limitation is just one of the issues, others include stationary vehicle detection and crossing traffic detection.

It still seems a little odd to me that Tesla would be using such a limited, early-vintage AEB system and also claiming to be at the cutting edge of safety tech. Those two items don't reconcile in my book.

I'm sure by the time you're actually in the market for a Tesla they'll have what you're looking for.

 

[Garlan Garner]

KZKZ: Then don't buy it. This is not for you. Why are you wasting your time here?

The $100k you are referring to is mostly for an excellent smooth electric drive and with a range that enables cross country road trips, with high speed supercharging capability which you other favorite automakers don't have. Why don't you go to those forms and complain about that anemic torque they all have.

I find it silly that folks pay $80k for a BMW SUV that has half the torque as a Tesla X.

Tesla safety record is proved beyond any doubt, even it may have scope to improve on AEB.

And also you are wrong that AEB won't come to a full stop. It does under certain a cicrumcrtsmces and doesn't In some other. There are videos that has saved impending collisions by coming to a full stop.

And I doubt other automakers are any different. I haven't heard of a car on the road today that wil come to a full stop from say 80mph in all circumstances.

Great post mkjay.......

No feature or function is designed to replace a driver. They are ALL driver assist apps.

 

[Az_Rael]

Auto Pilot and safety are 2 separate things. One is a feature and the other is a function. They really work well together.

However if you want a "flawless" system.....it hasn't been born yet....including humans.

Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

Right, so it's interesting that the CEO is the one using that incorrect terminology ("autopilot safety features")

Unless Autopilot Safety features are some totally new thing for the Model 3 that don't exist now

 

[Garlan Garner]

I'm sure by the time you're actually in the market for a Tesla they'll have what you're looking for.

Right, so it's interesting that the CEO is the one using that incorrect terminology ("autopilot safety features")

Unless Autopilot Safety features are some totally new thing for the Model 3 that don't exist now

I'll re-type my earlier post.

Technical people buy Teslas and Non-Technical people buy Teslas. When Elon speaks to EVERYONE....he uses generic terms that he believes Everyone understands. Probably hoping that technical people can make necessary and accurate changes to his vernacular without a whole lot of complaining. Kinda like when people say that Xeroxed a copy of paper when there is no machine with Xerox in the title around anywhere. Can you make a xerox on a Canon?


Well....sure you can.

My father would say - If you can't.....then just stand there till you figure it out - smarty pants.

 

[KZKZ]

I'll re-type my earlier post.

Technical people buy Teslas and Non-Technical people buy Teslas. When Elon speaks to EVERYONE....he uses generic terms that he believes Everyone understands. Probably hoping that technical people can make necessary and accurate changes to his vernacular without a whole lot of complaining. Kinda like when people say that Xeroxed a copy of paper when there is no Xerox machine around.

As the CEO of the company, he needs to speak accurately, not generically. Especially when it comes to something as important as safety.

When asked about the roll out of AP, why did Musk cite the safety benefits of AEB instead of the safety benefit of AP? That's just odd to me.

 

[Garlan Garner]

As the CEO of the company, he needs to speak accurately, not generically. Especially when it comes to something as important as safety.

When asked about the roll out of AP, why did Musk cite the safety benefits of AEB instead of the safety benefit of AP? That's just odd to me.

odd is good enough. I'm happy.

 

[Tam]

...Wouldn't AEB reducing impact speed from 76mph to 0 be better than 76 to 46mph? 46mph is faster than NHTSA's 35mph frontal impact tests.

Avoiding a crash or 0 mph is more preferable than just a reduction of 25 mph from current speed.

My guess is because of current technology limitations.

If I am not mistaken, most other company AEB systems are designed to brake to a stop to avoid a collision but, a very big BUT, they only work in relatively slow speed such as up to about 30 mph. You don't realize that until you read their manuals.

Thus, probably, Tesla has made a choice of speed reduction in high mortality speed rather than a full stop brake in lower mortality speed.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Let me say this....my 75 year old mom wanted a Tesla. She could care less about what Elon or anyone says. She probably doesn't even know who Elon is.

She doesn't know what AP is or AEB or anything is.

Let me tell you why she wanted a Tesla. .....She hates the smell of gas stations.

So she and my father bought one (Model S). They can afford 10 of them.

My mother says to me the other day......" I don't want to hear about all that tech-no-gidgit stuff. Just show me where the turn signal is and where the wipers are". I told her that the wipers come on by themselves and she has been calling me daily telling me that it hasn't rained yet. She is waiting with baded breath to take her car out into the rain. That is their current life project - to watch the wipers come on automatically.


I say....Although I'm a technical person and have the ability to surgically dissect all of Elons comments with the greatest of ease....as far as my parents and many other Tesla owners are concerned......who cares?

 

[Az_Rael]

Technical people buy Teslas and Non-Technical people buy Teslas. When Elon speaks to EVERYONE....he uses generic terms that he believes Everyone understands. Probably hoping that technical people can make necessary and accurate changes to his vernacular without a whole lot of complaining. Kinda like when people say that Xeroxed a copy of paper when there is no machine with Xerox in the title around anywhere. Can you make a xerox on a Canon?

Autopilot is just a marketing term. Looking at their website today, I have no way as a consumer to determine that it does NOT mean the safety features in addition to the TACC/Autosteer, etc. I always assumed it was the marketing name for the whole sensor package. Hence the specification of Autopilot "convenience features". Why do those need to be listed separately if there isn't anything else that is also "Autopilot"?

In the end, Tesla needs to clean up the marketing if they want Autopilot to only mean the convenience features.

 

[KZKZ]

Avoiding a crash or 0 mph is more preferable than just a reduction of 25 mph from current speed.

My guess is because of current technology limitations.

If I am not mistaken, most other company AEB systems are designed to brake to a stop to avoid a collision but, a big BUT, they only work in relatively slow speed such as up to about 30 mph. You don't realize that until you read their manuals.

Thus, probably, Tesla has made a choice of speed reduction in high mortality speed rather than a full stop brake in lower mortality speed.

The E-Class costs less than an S and it will work up to 155mph. Due to its stereo cameras and multi radar systems, it can also brake for stationary vehicles up to 62mph and brakes for crossing vehicles, crossing pedestrians and stationary pedestrians.