Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...

[ElectricLove]

The entire issue with Autopilot is education... If you want to ban autopilot then you should ban vehicles altogether; when inappropriately used a vehicle is one of the most dangerous things on the planet, autopilot is considerably less dangerous when inappropriately used (but it is still dangerous if not used properly)...

I was giving a speech last night on autonomous driving and it is clear that TESLA's marketing department has done a good job at educating the public that a TESLA has autopilot (room full of non-TESLA owners). It was simultaneously clear that people didn't have any idea how it works and more importantly what the limitations are. When I explained to them that they should think of it more like "an elaborate cruise control feature with lane-keeping" they realized it isn't the "get in the car, take a nap, arrive at destination" type of system they thought it was...

It's all about education, TESLA has done a poor job at educating the consumers about the limitations of and actual capabilities of the present autopilot system. We all know that the future is bright and that the autopilot will evolve to do all the things we conceive it being possible of, but at the same time we need to understand that it simply isn't there yet. The software is still building, deep-learning takes time, the hardware is still maturing, EyeQ revision coming soon, increased processing power, ability to identify more "objects" and scenarios, etc. Autopilot is INCREDIBLE and shouldn't be removed from vehicles, but a push for educating people on what it is genuinely capable of and how it should be safely utilized is ESSENTIAL!

TESLA marketing needs to step up their game at educating the public and general consumers on the limitations/abilities of Autopilot. They've clearly done a remarkable job at educating on the existence of Autopilot, they are more than capable of this task.

Just 4 weeks ago a coworker told me they went to test drive a Model S, I asked them how the TESLA employee advised them to interact with the Autopilot, he told me he was told to "engage the autopilot and take your hands off the wheel"... When I heard this I cringed and realized that TESLA isn't doing a very good job at educating their own employees on the limitations of Autopilot, this may have been a "one-off" interaction, and it happened before the accident in Florida, I would hope by now this type of thing would NEVER happen at any TESLA showroom in the world...

 

[Don85D]

The root cause is an entire generation of humans that love gadgets. They want all work and thinking to be done by apps or Internet connected things.

It's sad to watch.

 

[Max*]

The root cause is an entire generation of humans that love gadgets. They want all work and thinking to be done by apps or Internet connected things.

It's sad to watch.

Yeah, this whole work smart not hard thing is ridiculous!

 

[ElectricLove]

Future holds 100% autonomous vehicles... The laziness has only just begun... A child born today very well may never need to drive a vehicle... many of us will still be alive when fully autonomous vehicles become the norm and someday it may even hold that laws are in place to prevent human-piloted vehicles on public roads altogether...

 

[Garlan Garner]

Looks like we will get an update that improves autopilot.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk says electric car maker is striving to improve Autopilot

I think Elon Musk's handling of this fatality has been a class act. A radical change in the radar and Mobileye was identified as a result and it looks as if he has left no stone unturned in addressing it immediately. What a CEO! Personally I really look forward to the update.

I think AP would have received massive updates regardless of the accident. AP is a big thing for TESLA. There will certainly be other people in the near future blaming AP for their crashes and unfortunate deaths. Its just going to happen because people hate taking responsibility.

 

[Garlan Garner]

The entire issue with Autopilot is education... If you want to ban autopilot then you should ban vehicles altogether; when inappropriately used a vehicle is one of the most dangerous things on the planet, autopilot is considerably less dangerous when inappropriately used (but it is still dangerous if not used properly)...

I was giving a speech last night on autonomous driving and it is clear that TESLA's marketing department has done a good job at educating the public that a TESLA has autopilot (room full of non-TESLA owners). It was simultaneously clear that people didn't have any idea how it works and more importantly what the limitations are. When I explained to them that they should think of it more like "an elaborate cruise control feature with lane-keeping" they realized it isn't the "get in the car, take a nap, arrive at destination" type of system they thought it was...

It's all about education, TESLA has done a poor job at educating the consumers about the limitations of and actual capabilities of the present autopilot system. We all know that the future is bright and that the autopilot will evolve to do all the things we conceive it being possible of, but at the same time we need to understand that it simply isn't there yet. The software is still building, deep-learning takes time, the hardware is still maturing, EyeQ revision coming soon, increased processing power, ability to identify more "objects" and scenarios, etc. Autopilot is INCREDIBLE and shouldn't be removed from vehicles, but a push for educating people on what it is genuinely capable of and how it should be safely utilized is ESSENTIAL!

TESLA marketing needs to step up their game at educating the public and general consumers on the limitations/abilities of Autopilot. They've clearly done a remarkable job at educating on the existence of Autopilot, they are more than capable of this task.

Just 4 weeks ago a coworker told me they went to test drive a Model S, I asked them how the TESLA employee advised them to interact with the Autopilot, he told me he was told to "engage the autopilot and take your hands off the wheel"... When I heard this I cringed and realized that TESLA isn't doing a very good job at educating their own employees on the limitations of Autopilot, this may have been a "one-off" interaction, and it happened before the accident in Florida, I would hope by now this type of thing would NEVER happen at any TESLA showroom in the world...

I understand your post. I really do, however I have an issue with it.

You should help to fully explain AP just like all manuals explain cruise control / anti-lock brakes / automatic wipers and the millions of other options that come on a TESLA.
I believe Tesla employees are FULLY aware of the operation of AP. I also believe that Tesla employees are FULLY aware of any limitations. I have no problem with a Tesla employee saying that to use the "Auto Steer" function you should take your hands off the steering wheel and let the car "Auto Steer". Just like I wouldn't have a problem with a Tesla employee saying that the "auto-pace" feature allows you to take your feet off of the accelerator and brakes.

The "auto steering" feature (included in AP) was not the problem in this case. The "auto-pace" feature ( included in AP ) would more have been the culprit. Wait.... A glorified cruise control? Cruise control that didn't stop? Who needs instructions for Cruise Control? Is it really that complicated? There is a camera that locates objects around the car and adjusts the speed ( auto pace ) feature so that you won't hit it.

Someone raise their hand in this forum if you don't understand the auto pace feature after my short explanation of how it works.

I want to hear success stories if that's ok. There are probably hundreds of good reports of AP every day. Society seems to thrive on Negative and bad news and I don't understand why.

Where is the success thread for AP?

 

[JonG]

I have problems with some of these views expressed :

- incidents like Montana show that even when the car is in a dangerous scenario, single/undivided road and no driver response for over two minutes, it didn't slow the car, it just popped up a warning message. That's between 1 and 2 miles of travel without a driver acknowledgement. That's just wrong.

- the better the whole AP system becomes, the greater the reliance and confidence, the more human nature will have people checking emails and not paying attention. Beta test or not, the current level of assist will NEVER be intended to be left to it, it will only require less driver intervention when it goes wrong, which will paradoxically result in less attention being paid, which will increase the perpensity for an accident should an unusual event occur.

I'm quite happy to accept in all cases it's the drivers fault, but Tesla need to think more about human behaviour than technical function on this one to ensure the driver is engaged and paying attention.

 

[ElectricLove]

I understand your post. I really do, however I have an issue with it.

You should help to fully explain AP just like all manuals explain cruise control / anti-lock brakes / automatic wipers and the millions of other options that come on a TESLA.
I believe Tesla employees are FULLY aware of the operation of AP. I also believe that Tesla employees are FULLY aware of any limitations. I have no problem with a Tesla employee saying that to use the "Auto Steer" function you should take your hands off the steering wheel and let the car "Auto Steer". Just like I wouldn't have a problem with a Tesla employee saying that the "auto-pace" feature allows you to take your feet off of the accelerator and brakes.

The "auto steering" feature (included in AP) was not the problem in this case. The "auto-pace" feature ( included in AP ) would more have been the culprit. Wait.... A glorified cruise control? Cruise control that didn't stop? Who needs instructions for Cruise Control? Is it really that complicated? There is a camera that locates objects around the car and adjusts the speed ( auto pace ) feature so that you won't hit it.

Someone raise their hand in this forum if you don't understand the auto pace feature after my short explanation of how it works.

I want to hear success stories if that's ok. There are probably hundreds of good reports of AP every day. Society seems to thrive on Negative and bad news and I don't understand why.

Where is the success thread for AP?

It would take a long time for me to do a thorough explanation of the operation of AP...

I do have a couple responses to things you said in your post though;

The camera that locates objects around the car doesn't make speed adjustments, it is just one of many "inputs" to the algorithm that builds a local map dictating where the vehicle "can" (ie. is allowed) exist...

This photo does a good job dictating what AP "sees"? (notice this photo is from a next generation system, yet to be released, Tesla's AP "sees" most of these things but not all)

One of the things to recognize is that the image is only there for humans to see, to the car the only thing it actually sees are those things which are boxed and/or highlighted... The green zone indicates "allowed" space, the blue line indicates "ideal trajectory"... The boxes around signage and people are misleading b/c those aren't present in the Tesla AP system (yet)... Each object gets a 3D domain built around it so the computer can add it to the 3D map of the local environment... Another thing Tesla AP doesn't "see" is "cross-traffic", traffic which is moving across the field of view, the iteration of the hardware should enable this ability (helpful at intersections, obviously)...

Anyways, I hesitated posting that photo b/c it does make it seem like the AP system would see humans and signage, but reality is the current Tesla AP does not (there is a difference between seeing it the way we do in a photo and the computer seeing it and being able to add genuine information to a local map)... Suffice it to say that the system doesn't see everything yet, its learning and growing but the human brain we all take for granted is a very powerful and efficient processor, the likes of which aren't yet available in a chipset that is reasonable to integrate into a vehicle...

Oh, the reason it bothered me when my buddy said they told him to remove his hands from the wheel: Tesla documentation on AP explicitly tells us to keep our hands on the wheel, it is also wise to keep a foot covering the brake when engaging cruise control, especially in scenarios where you can visualize and predict that some obstruction or need for slowing down is possible in the next few seconds (something we as humans with incredible intuition and ability to interpret empirical information)...

 

[SR22pilot]

IHS says AEB reduces rear end accidents by 40%. They see this as a big improvement. That still leaves 60% of rear end accidents that weren't prevented and it say nothing about vehicles crossing on front of the car in question. There are poster who would throw out the 40% improvement because the 60% weren't prevented. Heck, even if AEB prevented 100% of rear end collisions but didn't see a laterally crossing true,k there are people saying it should be disabled. This all or nothing attitude gets us nowhere. In the Florida accident people focus on lane keep assist when it was automatic emergency braking that didn't see the trailer.

 

[Garlan Garner]

It would take a long time for me to do a thorough explanation of the operation of AP...


Oh, the reason it bothered me when my buddy said they told him to remove his hands from the wheel: Tesla documentation on AP explicitly tells us to keep our hands on the wheel, it is also wise to keep a foot covering the brake when engaging cruise control, especially in scenarios where you can visualize and predict that some obstruction or need for slowing down is possible in the next few seconds (something we as humans with incredible intuition and ability to interpret empirical information)...

Excellent information.

I don't listen to ICE sales people. They are usually folks just there to push cars out the door. I don't hold Tesla sales people to any higher scrutiny. I use my common sense when driving. My Kia salesperson told me I could add an unlimited amount of Bluetooth phones to my radio. I'm not an idiot. There isn't an unlimited amount of memory in my car to hold an unlimited amount of phones.

Again I use common sense. I will NEVER be an "all or nothing" kinda person concerning AP or any feature of a car. I even pay attention when I'm riding a bus or a plane or when someone else is driving a car that I'm in.

I believe what most people are angry at is that they purchased an Auto Pilot feature that isn't fully "Auto". They are saying things like "You mean I still have to think? and/or steer? and or pay attention? Answer=YES.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Every time I see an Auto Pilot headline:

 

[Gizmotoy]

IHS says AEB reduces rear end accidents by 40%. They see this as a big improvement. That still leaves 60% of rear end accidents that weren't prevented and it say nothing about vehicles crossing on front of the car in question. There are poster who would throw out the 40% improvement because the 60% weren't prevented. Heck, even if AEB prevented 100% of rear end collisions but didn't see a laterally crossing true,k there are people saying it should be disabled. This all or nothing attitude gets us nowhere. In the Florida accident people focus on lane keep assist when it was automatic emergency braking that didn't see the trailer.

You're right, and it's not just about prevention, either. Of those 60% that weren't prevented, how many were reduced in severity? How many were dramatically reduced in severity? That undoubtedly still leaves some where no benefit was provided, but it's still a substantial improvement.

The same thinking should apply to other semi-autonomous assists, IMO. The main problem being that it's so much easier to demonstrate the failures of the system than the successes.

 

[wcalvin]

So far as I can tell, the hands-on-the-wheel warning must operate on resisting the autosteering by a small amount. But what if you are on a long straight road where the autosteering doesn't move the wheel for long periods? Anyone know better?

 

[CTShore]

So far as I can tell, the hands-on-the-wheel warning must operate on resisting the autosteering by a small amount. But what if you are on a long straight road where the autosteering doesn't move the wheel for long periods? Anyone know better?

Once my service center (thank you Milford!) explained that it was this resistance vs holding the wheel my nags have disappeared. Drove from CT to Washington DC on AP without one nag.

 

[Topher]

So far as I can tell, the hands-on-the-wheel warning must operate on resisting the autosteering by a small amount. But what if you are on a long straight road where the autosteering doesn't move the wheel for long periods? Anyone know better?

I am under the impression that the auto-steer just moves the wheel (without moving the tires) every so often on long straight roads.

Thank you kindly.

 

[zambono]

It's all about Pokemon Go players crashing into things, cars this week. AP is a thing of the past, AP is dead, long live AP.
Pokemon Go player crashes into cop car, gets caught on body camera
Pokémon Go player crashes his car into a tree

Hurry its time to have a congressional hearing on Pokemon Go

 

[MP3Mike]

I am under the impression that the auto-steer just moves the wheel (without moving the tires) every so often on long straight roads.

I don't think that is possible. It isn't a drive-by-wire steering wheel, it is connected directly to the steering rack. (And should work even with the car powered down.)

 

[HookBill]

Some good news from NHTSA: Tesla Autopilot crash won't halt self-driving car development, NHTSA says - Roadshow

 

[Tam]

NTSB Issues Preliminary Report for Williston, Florida, Highway Crash

7/26/2016
The National Transportation Safety Board issued Tuesday its preliminary report for the investigation of a fatal May 7, 2016, highway crash on US Highway 27A, near Williston, Florida.

The preliminary report does not contain any analysis of data and does not state probable cause for the crash.

The preliminary report details the collision involving a 53-foot semitrailer in combination with a 2014 Freightliner Cascadia truck tractor and a 2015 Tesla Model S. The report states that according to system performance data downloaded from the car, the indicated vehicle speed was 74 mph just prior to impact, and the posted speed limit was 65 mph.

The car’s system performance data also revealed the driver was using the advanced driver assistance features Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and Autosteer lane keeping assistance. The car was also equipped with automatic emergency braking that is designed to automatically apply the brakes to reduce the severity of or assist in avoiding frontal collisions.

A team of five NTSB investigators traveled to Williston to conduct the on-scene phase of the investigation. The team used three-dimensional laser scanning technology to document the crash location, the damaged trailer and the damaged car. NTSB investigators continue to collect and analyze performance data from the car’s multiple electronic systems. This data along with other information collected during the on-scene phase of the investigation will be used to evaluate the crash events.

All aspects of the crash remain under investigation. While no timeline has been established, final reports are generally published 12 months after the release of a preliminary report.

Contact: NTSB Media Relations
490 L'Enfant Plaza, SW
Washington, DC 20594
Christopher O'Neil
(202) 314-6133
[email protected]

 

[Max*]

He was doing 74mph, that's not that fast for a 65mph zone (only 9mph over the speed limit).

So to the people who kept saying "he's a dare devil, look at his other 8 speeding tickets" I reply with: neener neener