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First P85D adopters stuck in black hole

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#501
Auzie said:
Sorry to hear that you missed it, that is from me, I am not connected with Tesla, just an investor.

Agree with you that empathic acknowledgement of misfortune seems to flow better than not saying anything.

Perhaps Tesla may need to develop a generic disclaimer for all customers. The disclaimer would have to be acknowledged prior to ordering.

The disclaimer may state many things, including something to the effect "Tesla is continually upgrading cars with new features. Complexity of our logistic process may result in you not getting some of newly developed features incorporated in your car, whilst some other cars produced at the same time may get the new feature. This allocation is completely random and unintentional. We are sorry if that happens to you" etc etc

My personal experience with delivering bad news is that such news are received with far less anguish if people on the receiving end have understanding of why they got unlucky. It is helpful if their experience of being unlucky can be de personalised by providing appropriate facts and explanations. In this case some explanations of the process complexity, number of cars being affected (not sure about that, maybe), the flow of cars through the pipeline, etc. If appropriate and not damaging in some other way, perhaps such information might be helpful.

Or perhaps Tesla can do a bit better than the above. Throw in some generic sweetener to unlucky customers that fall into the pipeline with upgraded cars. Sweetener lessens the pain better than just words. It might be difficult to discern where to draw the line for the sweetener.
Click to expand...

Tesla do have such a disclaimer. I personally think it needs some work as it comes across a bit harsh IMO. I think at some point they may need to revise their policy on hardware upgrades as it inevitably always causes some annoyance and dissent due to its seemingly random unfairness. Anyone caught on the wrong side of this is always going to be unhappy regardless of the disclaimer.

My beef with the process is that even in Tesla's disclaimer they state that "[FONT=&amp] ..a number of features might be launched the day after a customer takes delivery of any car.[/FONT]"; however, in the "black hole" scenario a feature was released before we had taken delivery of the car and for even worse optics, some owners had their cars delivered before us and with more features. Normally the technology trade off is you get technology early you might get less features, not the reverse. Incidentally being given the pat lecture on Tesla innovation after dropping $40K to upgrade to the latest technology felt like a bit of a slap. Trust me, I get how it normally works. Anyway, I've taken the delayed approach and hopefully I'll have my dream car by the end of January and for any features that arrive after that I'll suck it up and try to keep the whining to a minimum.

Disclaimer Excerpt
[FONT=&amp]We do not comment on potential future features. Please note that innovation is a continuous process at Tesla: we do not have traditional model years. As such, a number of features might be launched the day after a customer takes delivery of any car. If you are happy with the product we currently sell, you should order one. If you would rather wait, that is also possible. Just note that there will always be a newer feature introduced in the near future. As a small public company under tremendous scrutiny and pressure, we do not communicate about future product development.[/FONT]
 
#502
gpetti said:
Tesla do have such a disclaimer. I personally think it needs some work as it comes across a bit harsh IMO. I think at some point they may need to revise their policy on hardware upgrades as it inevitably always causes some annoyance and dissent due to its seemingly random unfairness. Anyone caught on the wrong side of this is always going to be unhappy regardless of the disclaimer.

My beef with the process is that even in Tesla's disclaimer they state that "[FONT=&amp] ..a number of features might be launched the day after a customer takes delivery of any car.[/FONT]"; however, in the "black hole" scenario a feature was released before we had taken delivery of the car and for even worse optics, some owners had their cars delivered before us and with more features. Normally the technology trade off is you get technology early you might get less features, not the reverse. Incidentally being given the pat lecture on Tesla innovation after dropping $40K to upgrade to the latest technology felt like a bit of a slap. Trust me, I get how it normally works. Anyway, I've taken the delayed approach and hopefully I'll have my dream car by the end of January and for any features that arrive after that I'll suck it up and try to keep the whining to a minimum.

Disclaimer Excerpt
[FONT=&amp]We do not comment on potential future features. Please note that innovation is a continuous process at Tesla: we do not have traditional model years. As such, a number of features might be launched the day after a customer takes delivery of any car. If you are happy with the product we currently sell, you should order one. If you would rather wait, that is also possible. Just note that there will always be a newer feature introduced in the near future. As a small public company under tremendous scrutiny and pressure, we do not communicate about future product development.[/FONT]
Click to expand...

The disclaimer needs improvement, to include the scenario that happened to you and some other (black hole) customers. Tesla operates in a black hole universe, there will be many black holes ahead and practice makes perfect. I have no doubt that Tesla team will soon master their communication to improve customers purchasing experience.

What sort of communication would have worked for you better, considering business (process) constraints of Tesla - the inability to allocate new unannounced feature(s) according to order date and the inability to hide such facts from unlucky customers?
 
#504
Auzie said:
The disclaimer needs improvement, to include the scenario that happened to you and some other (black hole) customers. Tesla operates in a black hole universe, there will be many black holes ahead and practice makes perfect. I have no doubt that Tesla team will soon master their communication to improve customers purchasing experience.

What sort of communication would have worked for you better, considering business (process) constraints of Tesla - the inability to allocate new unannounced feature(s) according to order date and the inability to hide such facts from unlucky customers?
Click to expand...

Actually I see the p75D as a unique situation. It is the first time since the model S started production that they essentially released a brand new model - almost the equivalent of a new model year. A significant number of early purchasers were existing owners who (despite some annoyance when we realized how low the trade in offers were) committed to paying a premium to upgrade to the latest and greatest model. If Tesla new when they were starting to build their new flagship vehicle that they had a new feature all but ready to deliver in the same time frame they surely must have known that for people paying $40K to jump ahead, being one feature behind before the car was even delivered would cause anger and annoyance. Presumably they did understand this and took a chance that most people wouldn't notice. I'm guessing that the heated steering wheel was supposed to be part of the P85D delivery and a combination of advancing development of the car (mine started about a week early) and probably late arrival of parts etc. caused the first couple of batches to miss the feature. I think to apply the standard Tesla innovation clause in this situation was a mistake. How could they have handled this differently? I've seen a few suggestions here and in other threads but to summarize:
- Hold back cars that had the winter option, either without telling us why (the development order is still a mystery to most of us) or giving owners the option to take a 1-2 week delay for the feature.
- Make sure that the earliest cars were pre-wired/provisioned in as much as technically possible to make a retrofit possible.
- Hold the feature back until 2015 and communicate it. Some people would delay, others would move up.

- I guess the other option was to deliver it when available, count on most people not being aware of it and if anyone complained point out that they didn't order the feature so they shouldn't expect it - which of course legally is accurate. For anyone who is still pushing, encourage them to re-order. Perhaps if that was the only problem that would have been the path of least resistance its just that compounded with the other problems it made things worse for some of us.
 
#505
Just to note, as a black hole car delivered to NJ with the cold weather package I did not get a heated steering wheel. I also think it is not a make or break feature either, personally. I also am not sure why Tesla could not retrofit such an item. I do think it would have added some value to the subzero package, however, which is overpriced at $750 for a few extra seat warmers, heated wiper nozzles, and a heating strip by the wipers...
 
#506
wk057 said:
Just to note, as a black hole car delivered to NJ with the cold weather package I did not get a heated steering wheel. I also think it is not a make or break feature either, personally. I also am not sure why Tesla could not retrofit such an item. I do think it would have added some value to the subzero package, however, which is overpriced at $750 for a few extra seat warmers, heated wiper nozzles, and a heating strip by the wipers...
Click to expand...

As far as I know, nobody in the black hole group will have this feature, no matter where they live and no matter when the car is delivered. For me I did not have the pressure for a delivery date that you did so the longer things went on with zero information, dates etc. the less incentive I felt to take the original car. The only thing I was actually told was that I would not have the next gen seats and I would not have the heated steering wheel feature (and it would not be retrofittable). As of when I re-ordered, my "December" projection changed to the standard message about dates being approximate (with no new projected month) so it looked likely that at best I would get the car at the very end of December (more than a month after they started building it). I decided for the sake of a few more weeks I might as well get a 2015 year car built fresh off the line with the latest innovations, fixes and features. Right now my projected delivery date has moved up to end of January so unless I hit another "hole" I should have my car soon enough (not saying I'm not disappointed and impatient).
 
#507
gpetti said:
As far as I know, nobody in the black hole group will have this feature, no matter where they live and no matter when the car is delivered. For me I did not have the pressure for a delivery date that you did so the longer things went on with zero information, dates etc. the less incentive I felt to take the original car. The only thing I was actually told was that I would not have the next gen seats and I would not have the heated steering wheel feature (and it would not be retrofittable). As of when I re-ordered, my "December" projection changed to the standard message about dates being approximate (with no new projected month) so it looked likely that at best I would get the car at the very end of December (more than a month after they started building it). I decided for the sake of a few more weeks I might as well get a 2015 year car built fresh off the line with the latest innovations, fixes and features. Right now my projected delivery date has moved up to end of January so unless I hit another "hole" I should have my car soon enough (not saying I'm not disappointed and impatient).
Click to expand...

Just wondering if you have now been "promised" the heated steering wheel. Because as far as I can tell, it has still not been added to the subzero package, so whether or not cars receive it is still up to Tesla. Not trying to scare you, but just how upset would you be if after all this you STILL did not get the heated steering wheel? If you have not been promised it, I'd definitely do what you can to try to insure that you are getting it.
 
#508
Anyone else getting concerned about Tesla missing a promised year-end delivery? My P85D (VIN 63117, ordered 10/10, paid in full 12/4, Production Complete 12/20) hasn't yet started its journey to Austin as far as I can tell. With 7 days--including today, Christmas Day--left in the year I'm getting skeptical.
 
#509
cwood said:
Anyone else getting concerned about Tesla missing a promised year-end delivery? My P85D (VIN 63117, ordered 10/10, paid in full 12/4, Production Complete 12/20) hasn't yet started its journey to Austin as far as I can tell. With 7 days--including today, Christmas Day--left in the year I'm getting skeptical.
Click to expand...


Its certainly still possible. But it will need to ship very very soon.

I am sure there will be many people who miss 12/31 though.
 
#510
patp said:
I feel the same. Companies should be treating early adopters very well.
Click to expand...
Best thing I ever did when ordering from Tesla was to cancel my Model S Signature reservation, get my (refundable, at the time) deposit back, and get back later in line. I was still an early adopter (February 2013), but the build quality was a lot better (the person I know with a Signature had to take it in for repairs *repeatedly* in the first few months), it was substantially cheaper, and it had more options.

Tesla gouges the first in line. They've done so consistently.

Their communications on the sales end (as opposed to the service end) have also been really bad, which I attribute to disorganization. The salespeople can't get any information out of the factory, apparently -- basically, ever. That's what they told me in 2012, and I'm sad to see it hasn't gotten better since 2012.

I think a large part of the problem here is that Tesla is not using model years, and is not using version numbers either (like they did with the Roadster). There were some annoyed Roadster owners with "frankenstein" cars which were halfway between 2.0 and 2.5, but due to the small production run, it was just a couple of people.

There was a purpose of model years. It allows people to know what features they're getting; to know whether they're "before" or "after" the cutoff. Car makers do make changes mid-model-year, but they try to make them completely invisible to the purchaser. They understand the purpose of model years.

Tesla doesn't need to stick to one "model year" each year, but going to a strict version-numbering system for major, user-visible hardware features would help a lot. So anyone who ordered an 85D before this date gets version 1 (no heated steering wheel), anyone who orders it after this date gets version 2 (with heated steering wheel). Watching other people who ordered *later* getting the *newer version* just doesn't feel fair.

Perhaps someone should explain to Elon why model years exist. They serve a real function. "Version numbers" would do just as well -- but the point is, you don't order PageMaker 4 and get a copy of Pagemaker 3.5, or vice versa.
 
Last edited:
#518
neroden said:
Best thing I ever did when ordering from Tesla was to cancel my Model S Signature reservation, get my (refundable, at the time) deposit back, and get back later in line. I was still an early adopter (February 2013), but the build quality was a lot better (the person I know with a Signature had to take it in for repairs *repeatedly* in the first few months), it was substantially cheaper, and it had more options.

Tesla gouges the first in line. They've done so consistently.

Their communications on the sales end (as opposed to the service end) have also been really bad, which I attribute to disorganization. The salespeople can't get any information out of the factory, apparently -- basically, ever. That's what they told me in 2012, and I'm sad to see it hasn't gotten better since 2012.

I think a large part of the problem here is that Tesla is not using model years, and is not using version numbers either (like they did with the Roadster). There were some annoyed Roadster owners with "frankenstein" cars which were halfway between 2.0 and 2.5, but due to the small production run, it was just a couple of people.

There was a purpose of model years. It allows people to know what features they're getting; to know whether they're "before" or "after" the cutoff. Car makers do make changes mid-model-year, but they try to make them completely invisible to the purchaser. They understand the purpose of model years.

Tesla doesn't need to stick to one "model year" each year, but going to a strict version-numbering system for major, user-visible hardware features would help a lot. So anyone who ordered an 85D before this date gets version 1 (no heated steering wheel), anyone who orders it after this date gets version 2 (with heated steering wheel). Watching other people who ordered *later* getting the *newer version* just doesn't feel fair.

Perhaps someone should explain to Elon why model years exist. They serve a real function. "Version numbers" would do just as well -- but the point is, you don't order PageMaker 4 and get a copy of Pagemaker 3.5, or vice versa.
Click to expand...

++
that's a good post.
 
#519
Andyw2100 said:
Just wondering if you have now been "promised" the heated steering wheel. Because as far as I can tell, it has still not been added to the subzero package, so whether or not cars receive it is still up to Tesla. Not trying to scare you, but just how upset would you be if after all this you STILL did not get the heated steering wheel? If you have not been promised it, I'd definitely do what you can to try to insure that you are getting it.
Click to expand...
I had the same thought and I doubt that anyone will promise me anything on the record - in fact Jerome went to some lengths to make it clear that it is not a released feature. Before the information clampdown the buzz forms various DSs seemed to be that cars built after a certain point in December would have this feature provided they are in one of the priority regions. Evidence from the delivery thread seems to corroborate this though I have not seen any conclusive evidence that all of Canada is one of the regions. Hopefully 3s-a-crowd can confirm whether he gets the heated steering wheel. Of course this was only one of the reasons for my reordering but I'm assuming my chances of getting this feature are significantly higher than zero which is what I was faced with (one of the few things my DS could confirm). Who knows maybe I'll even get the new seats!
 
#520
gpetti said:
I had the same thought and I doubt that anyone will promise me anything on the record - in fact Jerome went to some lengths to make it clear that it is not a released feature. Before the information clampdown the buzz forms various DSs seemed to be that cars built after a certain point in December would have this feature provided they are in one of the priority regions. Evidence from the delivery thread seems to corroborate this though I have not seen any conclusive evidence that all of Canada is one of the regions. Hopefully 3s-a-crowd can confirm whether he gets the heated steering wheel. Of course this was only one of the reasons for my reordering but I'm assuming my chances of getting this feature are significantly higher than zero which is what I was faced with (one of the few things my DS could confirm). Who knows maybe I'll even get the new seats!
Click to expand...
I've been secretly hoping for this feature, to be honest. However we will all have to wait a bit longer as my delivery date got pushed back (I know, shocker right?). Tesla is endeavoring to have my car to me for the weekend of January 3rd. I guess they pumped out enough cars for Q4 that mine didn't make the priority list? It went into production Dec.15 and is still there nearly 2 weeks later (assuming the My Tesla status is correct). My DS told me that I would definitely not get the next gen seats yet. Honestly, I'm very doubtful I will get the heated steering wheel as well although perhaps I'm saying that to myself so I expect the worst to lessen my disappointment. I'm excited to get my car but will have to wait. Gpetty's decision is looking better and better every week that passes as no Alberta deliveries have occurred to my knowledge.
PS. It's "3s-a-charm" although I did watch way too many episodes of Jack, Christie and Janet in my youth! :)
 
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