Fog Lights Gone?

[scaesare]

Something is not right about that answer. I believe we have had cornering lights all along.


If you look at the videos on the gallery page of this site and watch the "Super Charger Event" video, you will see what are clearly cornering lights. They illuminate when the car is turning, and it's only one OR the other lit, not both. Furthermore they are in the "middle" position of the stack of lamps in the assembly, just below the yellow marker lamps.

Now look at the "New York Meets Model S" video. At 24 seconds you see what are the fog/ground lamps. They are BOTH simultaneously lit. And their position is at the bottom position in the stack.

Both of these videos pre-date the February fog-lamp "change" quite a bit.

Finally, if cornering lamps are REPLACING fog lamps, why are cars being shipped with plastic covers in one fixture position?

The car had both cornering and fog lamps all along. I appreciate you passing on what was told to you, but I think that answer is a dodge.


-sc

 

[yobigd20]

That's total BS! Cornering lights were always a part of the tech package even though it wasn't explicitly stated before.

Yes agreed. I have both the cornering lights and fog lights. Cornering lights did not "replace" the fog lights. Cornering lamps were always there. That was a total BS lie. I wonder if you were face to face with the DS if he could actually say that with a straight face.

And yes, I do see a difference when turning my fog lamps on and off. May not be much, but something is better than nothing. When fog lamps are on, and I am turning a corner, the cornering lamps really light up the turn.

I understand what the MVPA says about things may change, but fog lights are no little thing. Fog lamps can cost hundreds of dollars and more. If Telsa has removed them for good, which it seems ike they have, people that *have already paid for them*, will now be left to search for aftermarket solutions at an additional cost. Tesla should lower the price of the tech package some fog lamps were removed, or they should reimburse for third party aftermarket installs.

I'm starting not to like the "direct to consumer" sales model that Tesla is pushing around. At first I was all for it, because I don't like to have to haggle over price, but when they start changing what you get (for the worse, e.g. removing fog lights, removing alcantara headliner, etc) between when you order and when it's delivered, that's starting to fall into the bait-and-switch sales model if they keep this up.

Now I'm thinking (if I had to do it all over again) that I'd prefer to go to a dealership so at least I know what I'm getting and they aren't pulling one over your head. Sure, they can still change the hardware, but when it's sitting on a lot and you're buying it on the spot, at least you know exactly what you're buying. No chance for deception there.I know one of the biggest arguments that the dealerships is using to fight Tesla is that they are there to "protect the consumer", and if Tesla keep's up this bait and switch track record I think I'm going to start believing them...

I don't like to rag on Tesla because I friggin love them, but they *really* need to stop with these poor communication problems...

 

[jomo25]

I guess because cornering lights were not explicitly included in the specs (i believe) previously but people were getting them still allows them to say they replaced fog lights.

Fog lights were there. Cornering were not. Those who got both got a bonus. Those who only get one are just getting one as Alec's except fog were replaced by cornering. This is the only way their statement reconciles.

I don't agree with it but I guess that's how they are saying it with a straight face and sleeping at night.

 

[neroden]

And yes, I do see a difference when turning my fog lamps on and off. May not be much, but something is better than nothing.

Yep. I verified this in fog.

They're not super -- as everyone else says, they're far from the best fog lights on the market -- but they do help.

It's possible they dropped them because they're pretty bad fog lights. However, they are definitely better than no fog lights. Someone who ordered the tech package because they absolutely need fog lights -- like me -- would be pretty ticked off to just find out that they were missing because Tesla didn't feel like delivering them.

The cornering lights were always present, and seem to clearly be additional, because they activate separately when turning.

I understand what the MVPA says about things may change, but fog lights are no little thing. Fog lamps can cost hundreds of dollars and more. If Telsa has removed them for good, which it seems ike they have, people that *have already paid for them*, will now be left to search for aftermarket solutions at an additional cost. Tesla should lower the price of the tech package some fog lamps were removed, or they should reimburse for third party aftermarket installs.

Absolutely. I appear to have been lucky enough to get a car with fog lights. But that was *the only reason I bought the tech package*. We get a lot of fog here these days. Anyone who paid for the tech package while Tesla was advertising fog lights, and didn't get fog lights, was bait-and-switched.

Tesla has got to stop pulling this sort of garbage if it wants to survive.

I'm starting not to like the "direct to consumer" sales model that Tesla is pushing around. At first I was all for it, because I don't like to have to haggle over price, but when they start changing what you get (for the worse, e.g. removing fog lights, removing alcantara headliner, etc) between when you order and when it's delivered, that's starting to fall into the bait-and-switch sales model if they keep this up.

Yep. And frankly there's been quite a lot of that going on at Tesla. Purely due to accident and miscommunication, I'm sure... which doesn't excuse any of it.

Now I'm thinking (if I had to do it all over again) that I'd prefer to go to a dealership so at least I know what I'm getting and they aren't pulling one over your head. Sure, they can still change the hardware, but when it's sitting on a lot and you're buying it on the spot, at least you know exactly what you're buying. No chance for deception there.I know one of the biggest arguments that the dealerships is using to fight Tesla is that they are there to "protect the consumer", and if Tesla keep's up this bait and switch track record I think I'm going to start believing them...

- - - Updated - - -

For reference, I endorse "An Open Letter To Elon Musk regarding Fog Lights." I got the fog lights. They are useful. They are not as good as most fog lights on the market, but they are definitely better than not having fog lights.

- - - Updated - - -

The comment from Elon about them doing more harm than good makes me wonder if they didn't meet some sort of DOT standard, and a stealthy removal was just easier than having to do a recall.

If you know what you're doing, they're useful; they are better than not having them in certain types of fog. I could certainly imagine them not meeting some sort of official standard for fog light quality, since they're not that great. However, that leaves Tesla with the obligation to come up with better fog lights, not just delete them without notice.

 

[yobigd20]

I have an idea!! If the fog lights are indeed history, instead of just filling it in with a blank panel, perhaps they'll utilize this space for PARKING SENSORS!!! Now, if Tesla said to me "those fog lights are useless, we'll swap them out for you with parking sensors for free instead" I might be down with that.

 

[Doug_G]

I guess because cornering lights were not explicitly included in the specs (i believe) previously but people were getting them still allows them to say they replaced fog lights.

That is my guess. I discovered the cornering lights driving the car home from delivery; a pleasant surprise that wasn't in the specs. The fog lights were there, too, as per the specs, and I could operate them. I checked and they were indeed separate lights.

Tesla's explanations do come across like "spin", rather than a sensible explanation. Very odd.

- - - Updated - - -

I have an idea!! If the fog lights are indeed history, instead of just filling it in with a blank panel, perhaps they'll utilize this space for PARKING SENSORS!!! Now, if Tesla said to me "those fog lights are useless, we'll swap them out for you with parking sensors for free instead" I might be down with that.

Interesting thought! Maybe that's what's going on. They're putting the parking sensors in those locations, so they ditched the lights on all vehicles to make the space available for them.

 

[scriptacus]

If what they claim about the cornering lights is true, I would expect to see them hooked up to the fog lamps toggle on the 17". I don't believe this is something they have do so far... They just removed the button instead.

 

[Isletime]

Interesting thought! Maybe that's what's going on. They're putting the parking sensors in those locations, so they ditched the lights on all vehicles to make the space available for them.

Furthermore, I wonder if they could leverage the wiring harness used for the foglights for parking and/or collision prevention sensors. There was also the screenshots showing the adaptive cruise control settings in the diagnostic menus on the 17"

 

[yobigd20]

If what they claim about the cornering lights is true, I would expect to see them hooked up to the fog lamps toggle on the 17". I don't believe this is something they have do so far... They just removed the button instead.

Removed what button? I'm on 4.4 and I have the fog lights button...

 

[scriptacus]

Removed what button? I'm on 4.4 and I have the fog lights button...

You also have fog lights I assume. It's my understanding that cars without the fog lights do not have the option to toggle them. (See previous posts in this thread)

 

[qwk]

Tesla's explanations do come across like "spin", rather than a sensible explanation. Very odd.

Yep, it has been like that for a while. I have said this for a long time, people who spend six figures on a car, are much more apt to notice shady behavior, than someone who spends $500 on an ipad. If one is going to tout that they are better than the competition(dealerships), do that, not act just as sleazy. Kind of reminds me of the "no maintenance" slogan, and then charging $600 per year to look at brakes, windshield wipers, and the like. Things like this really ruin reputations, and fast.

 

[JPP]

Further e-mail back and forth with my DS:


My reply first:


Question for you and the team...comes from an interested Model S owner:


Something is not right about that answer. I believe we have had cornering lights all along.


If you look at the videos on the gallery page of this site and watch the "Super Charger Event" video, you will see what are clearly cornering lights. They illuminate when the car is turning, and it's only one OR the other lit, not both. Furthermore they are in the "middle" position of the stack of lamps in the assembly, just below the yellow marker lamps.


Now look at the "New York Meets Model S" video. At 24 seconds you see what are the fog/ground lamps. They are BOTH simultaneously lit. And their position is at the bottom position in the stack.


Both of these videos pre-date the February fog-lamp "change" quite a bit.


Finally, if cornering lamps are REPLACING fog lamps, why are cars being shipped with plastic covers in one fixture position?


The car had both cornering and fog lamps all along. I appreciate you passing on what was told to you, but I think that answer is a dodge.


So are their just plastic covers, and pre-existing cornering lamps?


Thanks.


....


Her response:


Great question! Cornering lights did not 'replace' fog lights in the car. Early cars with Tech Package had both fog lights and cornering lights. However, the cornering lights were never explicitly mentioned in the Tech Package description. Conversely, fog lights were called out in the Tech Package description.

When we removed the fog lights from the car, we replaced 'LED fog lights' with LED 'Cornering Lights' as the marketed feature included in the Tech Package description.


....


My reply this morning:


Thanks for the info. However this still will not sit well with reservation holders who have seen earlier Model S vehicles (as I have, with colleagues who have Signature and early 'standard' Performance models) or who have been attentive to the various photos, videos, forums and blogs. Again, to delete fog lights and install a plastic blanking plate, even if there is a good technical/safety reason, would appear to some to be de-featuring a luxury vehicle and a form of surreptitious cost cutting. Yes, maybe on the web site the fine print regarding the Tech Package was ambiguous, but the vehicle itself is truth, as was built before and after the production change. I would again suggest that proactive (...and now reactive) communication is essential. Tesla is a very high profile company and subject to lots of (sometimes unwarranted) criticism and bad press. Your current and future owners/customers are your strongest advocates, and Tesla Motors needs to be more openly communicative and engender as much support from these perceived risk takers and pioneers as possible.


...off the soapbox...


...


BTW, all correspondence CCd to George B. & Ownership @ TM

 

[dflye]

If the fog lights have technical issues, disable them through a software update until an appropriate replacement can be installed when a vehicle is in the shop for scheduled service.

Anything less than that is Tesla cutting corners and making up excuses.

Especially if the cost of the package including the demised feature isn't decreased, and people who paid for the "whole package" get shorted on delivery.

 

[JPP]

LAst word today from my DS (see prior e-mails above):

Thank you for your response. I completely understand your frustration and concern. I want you to know that I am working with my managers to develop a satisfactory response and explanation for the public in reference to the fog lamps in hopes that we can resolve customers’ concern on a larger scale.

Thank you again for your feedback.

 

[scaesare]

JPP, thanks for the further communication of the issue with Tesla and with us.

Unfortunately, now the issue appears to be a game of semantics on Tesla's part, and one that doesn't quite jive with Elon's answer. He said, "...They made Model S worse, so they were deleted". He did not say "replaced". What if the fog lights had no problems? Would they have then deleted the cornering lights?

Two items minus one item = 1 item.

Furthermore, the rest of the problems still stand: Pictures show them. Videos have them.and the biggie, in my opinion: Show room cars have them.... we are buying a $100,000 over the internet. What we have to go by is a very limited amount of direct exposure to the product... so playing fast and loose with item deletions/"replacements" is inappropriate if you want people to trust that model.

Finally, I happen to be a VA buyer... and today I see Elon is tweeting about asking for help from VA folks to deal with the denial of dealership licenses in my state. My inclination to go to bat for Tesla to help them change the status quo is directly tied to how I'm being treated as a customer.

I'm inclined to also inquire to via email as well... hopefully if enough noise is made, we'll get some traction. Would you mind forwarding the email addresses?
Thanks.

-sc

 

[JPP]

Try [email protected] and [email protected]

 

[scaesare]

Try [email protected] and [email protected]

Excellent, thanks JPP.

Sent to both of those addresses, as well as what I guessed is Elon's address. I also linked to this open letter here as well as on the teslamotors.com forum urging them to look at customer feedback... so now is the time for as many people who care to do so support this if it's of importance to them.

 

[scaesare]

Another reason a buyer expects fog lights

Something else occurred to me regarding why it's completely reasonable for anybody buying a Model S to expect they are getting fog lights. If you place deposit and then finalize your configuration, you are invited to download the manual for your car.

Notice what's in the Owner's Manual on page 13:

Again I reiterate: I have sent Tesla $5000 on good faith for a car that I can expect based ONLY on what's presented to me. So far all of their collateral, including official documentation and showroom samples, state that I should expect fog lights.

 

[rlang59]

Again I reiterate: I have sent Tesla $5000 on good faith for a car that I can expect based ONLY on what's presented to me. So far all of their collateral, including official documentation and showroom samples, state that I should expect fog lights.

At this point if Fog lights are that important you are probably best served to see if you can cancel your order and get back your $5000. I don't see them putting them back and I really don't think you are going to get an answer that you are satisfied with.

 

[mknox]

Notice what's in the Owner's Manual on page 13:

The manual isn't perfect. My manual has the DRL button shown, but it isn't in the car. Canadian cars are not allowed to have a DRL override, so I fully understand this.