Fogging

[4sevens.com]

Sound like a reasonable conclusion. But aren't some drivers noticing measurable differences in airflow when comparing driver side to passenger side? That seems like the issue. Otherwise offgassing would be a bilateral problem for the windows.

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Theres no way off-gassing would create THAT much fogging... if it were passengers would probably be choking from the chemicals.

Keep in mind that if you have a car full of people - 5 adults - thats 5 heat and humidity generating "entities" and with temps near freezing outside it's easy to have issues with fogging. It takes a strong AC and heater system running full blast to clear out the air.

 

[mknox]

Keep in mind that if you have a car full of people - 5 adults - thats 5 heat and humidity generating "entities" and with temps near freezing outside it's easy to have issues with fogging. It takes a strong AC and heater system running full blast to clear out the air.

This is a problem that has been largely solved by the auto industry. I live in S. Ontario, Canada where temps can range from 100*F in summer to -20*F in winter. I often travel with 4 or 5 passengers, including those with snowy boots in the winter, and have never had fogging problems in any of my cars for years. One little trick I use when I know I'm more susceptible to fogging is to turn the fan speed higher and use bi-level (floor and dash vents). Typically "Auto" wants to keep heat to the floor and lowers the fan speed as the car warms up.

 

[Todd Burch]

Theres no way off-gassing would create THAT much fogging... if it were passengers would probably be choking from the chemicals.

Sure there is. (I'm a former meteorologist who has studied cloud seeding and...well...fog...)

The off-gassing is not the direct cause of the fogging--but the indirect cause of at least some of it. (Can't quantify how much since I don't yet have my car). If you can smell "new car smell", there are plenty of offgas particles in the cabin that can serve as condensation nuclei. Couple those with the cold window surface, and boom. Water droplets.

 

[screebo]

On manual, the defogger works fine but not in Auto Climate control. I'm told one of the next FW updates will address Auto mode doing a better job of defogging. Auto mode will need to run the A/C more often and a higher rate of fan speed as well as duct selection for the Auto mode to keep up with "wet jacket" related fogging. The A/C running full bore is needed to remove the moisture from the cockpit when the inside air is saturated with moisture. My latest FW update came Christmas day and is now version 4.1.

 

[FlasherZ]

Sure there is. (I'm a former meteorologist who has studied cloud seeding and...well...fog...)

The off-gassing is not the direct cause of the fogging--but the indirect cause of at least some of it. (Can't quantify how much since I don't yet have my car). If you can smell "new car smell", there are plenty of offgas particles in the cabin that can serve as condensation nuclei. Couple those with the cold window surface, and boom. Water droplets.

Exactly. This is why you don't want to use those stupid "smell pretty" containers of gel-laden crystals. All they do is off-gas and create a coating on the inside of the windshield (like off-gassing of new materials) that creates a condensation surface.

 

[RDoc]

I'm not convinced at all about outgassing being a significant cause of persistant interior fogging. No new car I've owned (since I stopped driving Alfas) has ever had a problem clearing interior window fogging or even ice/frost on the outside once the engine warmed up. These are all New England cars.

 

[Todd Burch]

I'm not convinced at all about outgassing being a significant cause of persistant interior fogging. No new car I've owned (since I stopped driving Alfas) has ever had a problem clearing interior window fogging or even ice/frost on the outside once the engine warmed up. These are all New England cars.

It depends on the materials used. Again, I don't have my car so I can't verify, but based on other reports that cleaning the window properly significantly reduces the fogging, condensation nuclei would be the major culprit.

 

[FlasherZ]

I'm not convinced at all about outgassing being a significant cause of persistant interior fogging. No new car I've owned (since I stopped driving Alfas) has ever had a problem clearing interior window fogging or even ice/frost on the outside once the engine warmed up. These are all New England cars.

As a person who has had his car since last month, I can tell you that cleaning the interior surface of the window significantly reduces the fogging that happens in the interior. There is a coating that forms -- and you can see it when you wipe it off -- that is attracting the moisture.

 

[Robert.Boston]

I'm not convinced at all about outgassing being a significant cause of persistant interior fogging. No new car I've owned (since I stopped driving Alfas) has ever had a problem clearing interior window fogging or even ice/frost on the outside once the engine warmed up. These are all New England cars.

Even though I mostly buy new cars, I've never had a car this new. Typically cars have spent weeks in transit and/or on dealer lots, giving them time to off-gas. My Model S was still in the factory four weeks ago, so continuing off-gassing is to be expected.

In any case, even if it's not a full/permanent solution, cleaning the windows seems to help.

 

[strider]

Even though I mostly buy new cars, I've never had a car this new. Typically cars have spent weeks in transit and/or on dealer lots, giving them time to off-gas. My Model S was still in the factory four weeks ago, so continuing off-gassing is to be expected.

Excellent point RB. I would say most new cars are months old, not just weeks, especially if they're built out of country.

Cleaning the windows makes a huge difference. I've also found you can manually select the defrost and floor vents and set the A/C to ON and it makes a huge difference. I like the defrost/floor option as I hate the air blowing in my face - it dries out my eyes.

 

[darthy001]

Excellent point RB. I would say most new cars are months old, not just weeks, especially if they're built out of country.

Cleaning the windows makes a huge difference. I've also found you can manually select the defrost and floor vents and set the A/C to ON and it makes a huge difference. I like the defrost/floor option as I hate the air blowing in my face - it dries out my eyes.

I dont think this i a valid "excuse" to be honest. My current VW Tiguan was custom built and I got it delivered just two weeks after it was produced. I have never seen a hint of fogging in it. Not even fully packed with 5people in it and -15C outside. AC gets rid of all fogging without breaking a sweat

 

[goaliemanshark]

Well I picked up my S at the factory hours after it left the production line. They cleaned it before I got it. Significant new car still resides with the car, weeks after I got it. Off gassing is causing a lot of the fogging! All of it? Probably not. But a lot

 

[GSP]

When comparing the Model S to cars one has owned in the past, please consider the EVs appear to fog more than ICEs. I have to run the defroster in my Volt more than my past ICE cars. It seems to fog up significantly more. Leaf owners have reported the same (probably earlier in this very thread).

ICE cars have plenty of waste heat that reduces fogging.

GSP

 

[Doug_G]

When comparing the Model S to cars one has owned in the past, please consider the EVs appear to fog more than ICEs.

My Roadster does not have fogging problems any worse than any ICE that I've owned...

 

[strider]

I dont think this i a valid "excuse" to be honest. My current VW Tiguan was custom built and I got it delivered just two weeks after it was produced. I have never seen a hint of fogging in it. Not even fully packed with 5people in it and -15C outside. AC gets rid of all fogging without breaking a sweat

The car may have been ASSEMBLED two weeks before you got it but I doubt the seats and all the plastic moldings were produced only 2 weeks before you got the car. Tesla's factory is extremely vertically integrated with injection molding, seat production, etc happening right on site and as-needed.

I also think that in Auto climate mode Tesla is being stingy with the A/C to keep power consumption down. On my Corvette and Subaru if you put the car in Auto it would run the A/C full-time. In the Model S if I turn the A/C to "On" then no fogging occurs.

 

[darthy001]

The car may have been ASSEMBLED two weeks before you got it but I doubt the seats and all the plastic moldings were produced only 2 weeks before you got the car. Tesla's factory is extremely vertically integrated with injection molding, seat production, etc happening right on site and as-needed.

I also think that in Auto climate mode Tesla is being stingy with the A/C to keep power consumption down. On my Corvette and Subaru if you put the car in Auto it would run the A/C full-time. In the Model S if I turn the A/C to "On" then no fogging occurs.

You might be right about the difference in productionstyles.

As a sidenote I experienced heavy fogging during my 15minute testdrive here in Norway and thats why I'm following these threads so carefully. It really caught me off guard since I havent seen that since the early 90s in anything remotely close to being a new car...

I believe that the car I drove is at least 3months old now, and it must have been cleaned numerous times during its life so far being a democar that was sent to Germany sometime in october or earlier. Far more cleaning of such cars as compared to what normal people would do on their own personal cars.

 

[Al Sherman]

I understand that a lot more folks are not having this problem than are. I also understand that even people that are having this problem still love the car. Still, this is clearly a problem and NEEDS to be fixed. I believe (and hope) it will be.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I understand that a lot more folks are not having this problem than are. I also understand that even people that are having this problem still love the car. Still, this is clearly a problem and NEEDS to be fixed. I believe (and hope) it will be.

The car is very well sealed. And I disagree, but I'm not in snow or ice. I had 2 dogs (70-100 lbs) and my wife in my S and temps between 35 and 50 F. Fogging wasn't bad on my 600 miles of driving in rain. I turned the front defrost on 68-69 w/out AC when the front window had a hint of moisture beading on the lower passenger corner (not fog)

+ my car has less fogging issues than it did when it had the new car smell

 

[rcc]

Agree with the comments on manufacturing. Tesla builds as much as it can on-site. The car seats are done by an outside firm but Tesla insisted that the Tesla seats had to be built on-site to make coordination efficient and fast. So they are.

I got my car two days after it rolled off the line. The "new carpet" smell was really really intense. Lots and lots of outgassing. A week later the smell is mostly gone and the outgassing has reduced but both are still there.

The heating may need some more A/C in the mix too but I think we're going to need some time to let the outgassing calm down before we know for sure.

 

[mknox]

There was another thread (which, for the life of me, I can no longer find) where someone noted that the Tesla Design Studio photos now show what appears to be side window defogging vents on the A-pillars:

I stopped by the Toronto store today, and neither the White store model nor the Grey test drive car have them:

I wonder if Tesla has been quietly listening and have made modifications to the design? If so, would Tesla retrofit existing customers' cars, or is this just something we may see going forward?