For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

[phantasms]

Is there any past guidance with this? I recall in the history of the Model S there were times that some cars were available for upgrades that others were not, no?


...always been a glass half full kind of guy. lol

 

[dennistdk]

If it were just as capable- and it's not any cheaper/easier to make- why does the 990 exist at all?
The only thing that fits the facts is if the 990 is cheaper AND less capable.

To be honest - there doesn't look to much different on the inverter side of things. Same number of mosfets, same layout, same chips. Inverters for 960 and 980 looks fully identical. 990 has a few more "advanced" components in one small corner - doesn't seem to be that significant for the output power. Also based on the canbus data they are getting roughly the same input power during peak, the front was the main difference between the AWD and Performance when accelerating, not the rear.

Cheaper? Maybe, but not by much. And if it was they might would have put the 990-style inverter in the front also to save cost? They look to identical to be any major difference.
Maybe they just optimized a few components based on availability - it might just be a newer revision of the 980. Nobody knows yet, but now people are starting to take them apart, so will be interesting to see.

 

[Knightshade]

Cheaper? Maybe, but not by much

Only needs to be a little, times a ton of cars, to be worth doing.

it might just be a newer revision of the 980. Nobody knows yet,

Sure we do.

990 has been in use for over a year now... if it was a newer 980 they'd be out of 980s long past- Tesla doesn't keep year-long parts backlogs.


Again- 990 is cheaper and less capable.

Any other explanation and either it wouldn't exist, or it'd be used on all the models.

 

[Knightshade]

Is there any past guidance with this? I recall in the history of the Model S there were times that some cars were available for upgrades that others were not, no?

Yeah but I think in both cases it was the newer ones that could get the upgrade not older...

(75 free uncork...and some kinda paid one on P85)

 

[M109Rider]

glass half full...



...glass half empty...



I'm kinda torn.

On the one hand offering the full unlock to 980 AWD cars is free money for Tesla... AND it avoids "hurting" future P sales because it's made clear future AWD owners won't have it available to them.

OTOH you end up with newer 990 AWD owners upset about...not having an option...that they never were told they'd have... but somehow still mad because that's how people are.

True, I did get all “Glass Half Empty” there, but at least I wasn’t indecisive.
Sheesh.

I do hope your first hand is the right one.
I would be first in line to pull the trigger. !

 

[Apprunner]

If it were just as capable- and it's not any cheaper/easier to make- why does the 990 exist at all?

If it were LESS capable, and not any cheaper/easier to make- same question- why would it exist at all?


If it were just as capable and it IS cheaper/easier to make- why do they still put 980s in the P instead of cheaper-but-just-as-capable 990s? Why would they not simply replace the 980 with the 990 period?


The only thing that fits the facts is if the 990 is cheaper AND less capable.

He has a point. I come from manufacturing and if the 980 parts are harder to find, or the supplier is capacity constrained, it makes sense to make the 980 with different parts. Its just as valid a reason to shift parts even though they are the same price for availability reasons. The cost of adding that little difference in the inverters is immaterial to the overall cost of the system. It may be that cost isn't a strong enough factor for a redesign of the board considering the overall cost of the system given design shifts costs money.

Perhaps the 980 inverters are more robust but the parts are harder to find so they went with a more available part thats not quite as strong so they have it in the much higher volume AWD version. Sure the costs might be a tinny bit lower but the availability might have been the primary driver of the switch. Just something to consider

 

[bedoig]

Wasn't rear motor power basically identical between AWD and P prior to the boost? Then the boost slightly lowered rear power but raised front motor power. If there's a bottleneck anywhere it seems like it's not the motors. Just going off vague memory of various threads though.

 

[dennistdk]

Only needs to be a little, times a ton of cars, to be worth doing.
Again- 990 is cheaper and less capable.

Speculation - it might even be more expensive as there are more complex components judging by the picture, but nobody knows without looking at the bom. Also they would probably have put the inverter in the front and in the less powerful SR models if it was cheaper. It might just be something simple as having two suppliers for some parts of the inverter and just using the 990 on the AWD as this is the one they sell the most of. But let's see what happens when people start tearing them apart and testing.

I honestly don't care about the upgrading as it's not relevant for me - I'm more interested in it from a technical perspective.

Wasn't rear motor power basically identical between AWD and P prior to the boost? Then the boost slightly lowered rear power but raised front motor power. If there's a bottleneck anywhere it seems like it's not the motors. Just going off vague memory of various threads though.

That is correct. The rear motor is almost identical to Performance (less than peak 10kW difference) based on can data. Actually it is higher in AWD now than in the original Performance in 2018. The accelleration boost seemed to have lowered the rear output and added a lot more to the front (tons of data on some old reddit posts). I do recall that the candata showed the same "power" available for both AWD and P.

 

[phantasms]

Honestly, if Tesla was going to allow us ever to full upgrade, the time is now. Future warranty costs aside it’s “free money” for the Q1 books.

 

[Knightshade]

Speculation - it might even be more expensive

Then why would they bother making it instead of continuing to use 980s?

It might just be something simple as having two suppliers for some parts of the inverter and just using the 990 on the AWD as this is the one they sell the most of.

If that were true, and the parts were equally capable, there's no reason for the entire drive unit to use a different PN.

When a PC maker uses a drive of equivalent size and performance from another manufacturer, they don't change the PN on the entire computer.

(at a high level they don't even change the PN on the hard drive- there's a master PN with several alternatives a level down since they're considered equivalent and whatever they have on hand goes into the PC...and when a warranty repair happens they use the high level # so you might well get a different brand replacement drive as an equivalent part)


So if they're identical parts from 2 different MFGs they'd both be 980s, and both be interchangeable for both manufacturing and warranty replacements.

They're demonstrably not though- with the 990 only appearing in one specific model at all.

 

[Sophias_dad]

It is a possible upside to the coronavirus shutdowns that Tesla might be looking for a cash infusion. I've got my $2k ready for when they offer give me a full-stealth-P upgrade. I might even pay a bit more, but for now I'm staying with my lowly unboosted AWD.

 

[TwoK4drSi]

Same here. $2k on standby. I know they can unlock it.

 

[Knightshade]

It is a possible upside to the coronavirus shutdowns that Tesla might be looking for a cash infusion.

Tesla just raised over 2 billion in spare cash.

To sit on top of the 6.5 billion in cash they had end of 2019.

This is probably the least in need of a cash infusion the company has ever been.

Using a metric of cash on hand vs quarterly revenue, Tesla is in better shape than GM or Ford (neither of which have even 1 average quarter of revenue in cash on hand)

 

[Urbancowboy]

@Knightshade Can you help me understand why you are so willing to die on the hill of your 980 vs 990 theory and unwilling to entertain any alternate perspectives? Have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong? Your theory may be based on sound logic, but it's not supported with any hard evidence.

There are lots of smart people on this forum with relevant backgrounds on this topic, and we continue to get more information as we did with these tear downs. It would be great if you could open your mind instead of constantly trying to prove to everyone that your theory is correct. Make this a scientific debate, not a religious one.

 

[Knightshade]

@Knightshade Can you help me understand why you are so willing to die on the hill of your 980 vs 990 theory

Because it's the only one that fits all known facts?

and unwilling to entertain any alternate perspectives?

I'm 100% happy to entertain alternative perspectives.

Ideally ones that take more than 30 seconds to find obvious problems or contradictions to known info with....still waiting on any to be honest.

Have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong?

Of course.

Hence why if someone has another explanation that actually fits known info- I'm all eyes.


The fact the 990 has been out there for over a year now and nobody has come up with one, and 0 new info has come up that doesn't agree with my theory, means it's not looking likely I'm wrong though.

Your theory may be based on sound logic, but it's not supported with any hard evidence.

Of course it is.

Some circumstantial, some based on general familiarity with large scale manufacturing, some based on the parts catalog, some based on known service happenings.

Plus, indeed, some pretty obvious deductive reasoning. Mostly very basic stuff like we know the 980 and 990 aren't functionally identical because they wouldn't have different PNs if they were.... instead if the "990 is just a revised 980" were true they'd increment the letter on the end of the PN just like they did the last half dozen times they revved the 980...it'd be the 980-I or 980-H or whatever letter they're up to now...instead of an entirely different part.


Likewise we can deduce the 990 must have an actual reason to exist, since it exists. Cheaper is the most likely reason. Though I agree "same price for a less capable unit, but much bigger supply for its parts" is also a possibility. Why less capable?

We can deduce the 990 is less capable than the 980... otherwise they'd just use the 990 in everything...because a same-or-cheaper part that was NOT less capable but WAS using more easily available parts would be a no-brainer to use in EVERYTHING. Using a single part is cheaper and easier in every regard. Manufacturing, supply chain, repairs, etc.... Instead they keep using the 980 in the P and all RWD-only cars. Therefore there MUST be a functional difference. And the higher-demanding version, the P, gets the 980. Thus the 990 must be lower capability.



But again- if you have a different reason that fits the facts and explains all that- what is it?

There are lots of smart people on this forum with relevant backgrounds on this topic, and we continue to get more information as we did with these tear downs.

Agreed.

And none of the new facts has changed anything so far.

It would be great if you could open your mind

It would be even better if you provided a real, potentially valid, alternative explanation instead of apparently...I dunno what... getting angry I'm the only one who has given one so far? Kinda weird honestly.

. Make this a scientific debate, not a religious one.

I've repeatedly cited the known facts. I've provided sound argument for how those facts exactly fit the situation I've described without requiring anything that contradicts anything we know.

I've asked nobody take a single thing on faith.

So your analogy is honestly nonsensical.


Again if YOU have an alternative theory that fits the facts- provide it.

 

[Olds442]

when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

- Sherlock Holmes

 

[tomas]

@Knightshade Can you help me understand why you are so willing to die on the hill of your 980 vs 990 theory and unwilling to entertain any alternate perspectives? Have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong? Your theory may be based on sound logic, but it's not supported with any hard evidence.

There are lots of smart people on this forum with relevant backgrounds on this topic, and we continue to get more information as we did with these tear downs. It would be great if you could open your mind instead of constantly trying to prove to everyone that your theory is correct. Make this a scientific debate, not a religious one.

This forum is full of people going in with views and opinions and debating. Why is the person you disagree with intractable and you are not? I don’t remember why, but I’ve had knightshade blocked for some time, so I don’t easily see the whole debate. Nonetheless, he/she has every right to post a view and even be insistent. If you don’t want to hear it, block it.

Personally, I see this thread descending into academic territory. It is pretty clear that there are 2 parts and that Tesla is not going to offer full unlock on DU that doesn’t meet spec. Nor are they going to do a messy upgrade that requires replacing components on a board. Their whole MO for repairs to date has been swap major parts locally and refurbish centrally. That’s how they’ve done S DUs with milling, eMMC, battery repairs. They’ve only done those major parts replacements to address warranty issues, not to offer upgrades.

And, in today’s Coronavirus situation, if you had factory time available, would you spend it twiddling with DUs for a small owner group who wants to pay a few bucks for a slightly larger acceleration upgrade than you currently offer? Or cranking out Ys to fill orders?

tear down all you want. I’m sure you will find it is technically possible. Who knows, maybe you will create a network of hobbyists who will upgrade your DU for a price. As has happened with eMMC. I truly doubt Tesla will do it, and I also doubt Tesla will honor your warranty if 3rd party does it. Not to mention issue of software config/updates!

happy arguing!

 

[Apprunner]

If you have agreement all the time, the forums become boring You want some conflict and then resolution like a good movie. I think we have good theories on the differences already, either it’s a cost issue or supplier issue. I agree Tesla isn’t going to fully upgrade AWD versions to Performance spec. That may alienate the Performance owners who are likely Teslas most valuable customer segment in theory (pay the most, enthusiast, etc)

 

[john5520]

It's not in Tesla's best interest to unlock it even if they could. The 2k upgrade is a nice bump and makes the AWD more competitive from a roll.I even saw a video where they were almost even in a roll race. The Performance is still the 0-60 king, but 3.9 for the AWD is nothing to scuff at. Besides, you'd want better brakes on the AWD after such a bump in speed. And maybe a beefed up suspension if you plan to track it. Might be cooling issues too.

I thought about getting the Performance, but IMO, unless I was going to track the car often, it wasn't worth the price for mostly street use. The AWD is plenty fast as is, even without the 2k boost (not that I'm not salivating to just do it..lol).

 

[Knightshade]

It's not in Tesla's best interest to unlock it even if they could. The 2k upgrade is a nice bump and makes the AWD more competitive from a roll.I even saw a video where they were almost even in a roll race. The Performance is still the 0-60 king, but 3.9 for the AWD is nothing to scuff at.

3.5, if you actually measure it the same way they measure the P....

Which of course Tesla doesn't because they want the P to look like a lot bigger improvement than it really is.

3.9 is what the AWD does without the boost when measured the way they measure the P.

Besides, you'd want better brakes on the AWD after such a bump in speed.

...why?

The brakes doesn't care if you got to speed X in 3 seconds or 20 seconds once you move from accelerating to braking.

And in street use the P brakes aren't any "better" at all (arguably worse from a maintenance perspective, IIRC the pads are harder to change.... but exactly identical in a "how short a distance will the car stop" perspective)

Now on a track, brake upgrades can do a lot for you (though stopping you shorter the first time isn't one of them)- but if you're gonna track the car you should be getting a P anyway for track mode.