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For Model 3 LTE/3g and free SC have to go

Model 3

Active Member
Jul 13, 2014
2,133
1,326
Norway
You are preaching to the choir here, but all of those solutions will no doubt be met with varying degrees of success. For those who fall through the cracks, there is no reason Tesla can't provide a subscription type of service for those who live, for example, within 12 miles of a supercharger and use it on a regular basis.

Ok, lets say they do that. How much pressure will this put on the landlords/bosses/shops/politicians/other charging networks to help fix the real problem? They will all say "Hey! You got the supercharger to use, we don't need to do anything!". And you end up with this half-solution instead of a real solution.

One of the real advantages with BEV's is that they charge while you are doing something else (like sleep, work, or at least shopping), not that you have to drive the car to some special place out of the way to wait for it to charge.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
16,336
41,419
Seattle, WA
From that (2 year old) article: "We suspect that access to the Supercharger network will be an option for Gen 3."
Don't read Eric's commentary. See what Musk said.

Musk confirmed to the crowd of gatherers that Gen 3 will get free access to the growing network of worldwide Superchargers.


Leaf's CARWINGS is included in the price of the vehicle, but it's certainly not free and from what I read CARWINGS is using 2G (GPRS) ATT network.
Anyway, the point is that at $35k and >200 mile range Model 3 will have to compromise (cut costs) and telematics as well as free SC are features that are likely not to be available at that price point.
Either SC is Tesla's USP or it is not. If it is, then it needs to be available even with the base model. I suspect the hardware will be there, you need to pay 2k to get the "free" charging feature enabled.
 

ratsbew

Active Member
Mar 3, 2012
1,296
1,054
O'Fallon, IL
Per-minute supercharger access is a fantastic idea! Not only does it support the cost of the network, but it also discourages people from camping in the spot longer than needed.

I think the cars should have free SC capability and then maybe $0.05/kWh + $20/hr after your battery reaches 100%. Payment should be automatic with no transaction at the SC station. Tesla will have your billing info and take care of it with a monthly bill.
 
What is the actual *physical* cost of enabling supercharger access? Apparently installing the SC option post-purchase cost $2500US, but only $2000 at time of purchase, so there must be some sort of hardware requirement? Let's say that there is 25% markup on the product, so that only really leaves $1500 for cost. If the car already supports DCFC, you'd think the necessary 'wiring' of the plug would already enable DC charging.

What would a rough breakdown be?
$1000 future electricity costs?
$250 Supercharger installation payment?
$250 parts & installation labour?
$500 net profit?
 

Vitold

Active Member
Aug 10, 2015
1,688
1,950
NM
Recent article in seeking-alpha estimated that Tesla expects the cost to be ~$59/year. In 'Edison' interview that number was 5% annually which I calculate to be $40 (depends where you are).

Tesla is assuming that, on average, only about 600 miles per year will be charged at SC which seems low.

As to hardware that is needed I read that SC is charging battery directly and there's not much hardware to speak of.
 

Ingineer

Electrical Engineer
Aug 8, 2012
1,512
3,724
There's probably $150-$200 in total physical hardware added to allow a car to be SC capable. The software is hard to put a value on.

All Model S cars after a certain VIN had SC hardware built in even if the owner didn't option it. There is a bit set in the configuration that enables the capability if you paid for the option. I guess Tesla figured it's not worth having 2 different build configurations when most people end up getting SC capability.
 
To the landlord issue, sell it as a way to attract "wealthier" renters. Even at the time of the model 3, there will be an argument to be made that BEV buyers are more likely to be able to pay a little extra, with consistency, for access to charging. Also, if you saw your neighbors charging a Model 3, I'd bet you'd be interested in joining, and the landlord would be interested in selling charger access. I'm sure it doesn't have to be anything fancy. I'd like to see the numbers for installing 50amp outlets near the parking lot that meets code.
 
There's probably $150-$200 in total physical hardware added to allow a car to be SC capable. The software is hard to put a value on.

All Model S cars after a certain VIN had SC hardware built in even if the owner didn't option it. There is a bit set in the configuration that enables the capability if you paid for the option. I guess Tesla figured it's not worth having 2 different build configurations when most people end up getting SC capability.

Actually they never built a Model S without the supercharger hardware.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
12,677
11,453
Maine
Everyone expects Model 3 to offer less comforts and technology than MS. (base-mid models). I think some of the features on the cutting board will be free access to SC and LTE/3G internet access.

  • It costs Tesla more than 25000 per year in electricity to support 8 stalls. Such cost cannot be subsidized by M3 under $35k price model.
  • LTE/3G access probably adds up as well, I'd imagine, $30/month is $2880 over the warranty life of the car (assuming 8 years).

I think pay per minute SC access for M3 is inevitable and should happen, lack of OTA could be easily solved by sending updates via SC network (upload files as you charge) or home WIFI. I'm interested what others think?

There is no such thing as free Supercharging. You pay for it when you buy the very expensive new car.

OK, so it's $25k per year for 8 stalls:
Let c be total charging sessions for that $25k.
Let s be average sessions per year per car.
Let l be average life of a car.

Let y be the average yearly charging cost per car
Then y = $25000s/c.

Charging is going to happen during the life of the car.
But remember that Tesla charges up front for Supercharging so they earn money on any "balance" paid.
Let r be Tesla's rate of return.
Let p be the price Tesla charges up front.

Then to break even p(1+r)^l = yl = $25000sly/c
p = $25000sly/c(1+r)^l

Feel free to play with the variables.

I'm with Republic, which charges $15/GB, a relatively high data price. Basic cell service is $10/mo including unlimited talk and text. I am a single customer, not a car company that can negotiate a deal for many thousands of numbers.
The key question is how much data the average car will use and how much data people in the car will use.
Remember that OTA updates are done on wifi and cars spend the vast majority of their time _not_ being driven.
 

Ingineer

Electrical Engineer
Aug 8, 2012
1,512
3,724
On the cellular data front, A similar data-only M2M plan is probably less than $100/year/car assuming less than a GB/month. (I can get better rates than that, and I don't have the numbers!) I bet it's almost impossible to use more than a GB on Tesla's hobbled browser.
 

wayner

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
4,059
1,597
Toronto
Regarding the 3G/LTE data - here in Canada Rogers has a deal where you can add additional devices to your account for $10/month and then you pool the data usage. I have 4GB/month currently for my wife's iPhone, my iPad, and a Wifi hotspot. So it wouldn't be too bad to add my car to this plan although it might also cause me to have to increase my monthly data allotment. If they do this then they should give you the option of only downloading updates when on Wifi, I don't want a big update coming down during the day while I am at work when it could be downloaded at night when it is in my garage connected to my wifi.

Incidentally - I have had my MS for seven months and in that time it has downloaded 28.5GB of data while on my wifi. That is 4GB/month so I wouldn't want to be paying for all of that data.
 

Ingineer

Electrical Engineer
Aug 8, 2012
1,512
3,724
If they do this then they should give you the option of only downloading updates when on Wifi, I don't want a big update coming down during the day while I am at work when it could be downloaded at night when it is in my garage connected to my wifi.
They already automatically do this. They roll out updates to customers on WiFi first, so as long as you connect to the WiFi every evening, Tesla will use that method. (Unless it's an emergency update) Not only that, but you'll get the updates sooner.
 
Honestly, considering how ubiquitous smartphones are now, I think give the base Model 3 capability to use a user's phone's hot-spot for live data, and home Wi-Fi capability for software/firmware updates. If users want built-in 4G, offer them the choice of multiple carriers, or as an add-on to their existing cellular data plan, kind of like the iPad.

In terms of supercharging, I'm more concerned about having the capability than it being free for life. Sure, that's a nice benefit, but when I'm in a crunch, and I need a quick recharge, I'd be willing to pay for it.
 
I work in telecommunications and given, how good deals we provide to large customers (who have thousands of SIM cards) and decline in cost of data, I doubt, that few GB/month/car will be a significant cost for Tesla in 2018+. IMO basic data connection (maps, emergency updates and remote diagnostics) will be included in cost of the car, with optional (relatively small) fee per year for additional data.

As for superchargers, I would expect similar one time fee as S60 had ($2K) to giíve you lifetime access to SCs, with provision, that using SC within 100 miles of your home will cost you $10-20 per session.
 

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