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For those owners unhappy with drop in maximum charged range

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No question that Tesla has the most advanced BMS in the industry, but that can't get around the basic physics of Li-Ion batteries. Lower SOC is better for lifespan. When you have time watch the Dalhousie video, it's great overview of the science and technology behind the batteries.

The question is how much of an improvement in battery life you'll get from <75% compared to 90%, but we won't know that answer until we have real world stats in 10-15 years. Batteries charged to 90% will probably be good for 8-10 years while those charged <75% could last 20+ (based on Prof. Dahn's research).

I'm not surprised Tesla doesn't offer guidance on battery life, there are too many variables at play and they don't have the long term stats either. We may be out of the early adopter phase, but we're still lab rats in the battery longevity study.

I agree, we definitely don't have the hard numbers. I wonder if I will be able to keep up with my plan to have an excel spreadsheet and record various numbers each day (miles driven, total charged, etc.) to see how it tapers off.

Also is it an official Tesla statement that you should see your battery drop off the most dramatically the first year? I think it is, I am just confirming. I will have to sit down and read that research myself, thanks for the info and the links!
 
I agree, we definitely don't have the hard numbers. I wonder if I will be able to keep up with my plan to have an excel spreadsheet and record various numbers each day (miles driven, total charged, etc.) to see how it tapers off.

Good idea to keep a log. Plug In America is doing a survey on the Model S batteries, I'd highly recommend all owners take time to fill it in, especially those with high mileage or early Signatures.

Plug In America

The PIA Roadster survey is the best data we have on battery longevity, and it looks promising with an expected loss of 15-20% over 100,000 miles (and with less advanced chemistry than Model S).

http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/tesla-roadster/PIA-Roadster-Battery-Study.pdf

Also is it an official Tesla statement that you should see your battery drop off the most dramatically the first year? I think it is, I am just confirming. I will have to sit down and read that research myself, thanks for the info and the links!

Tesla hasn't made any official statements on battery degradation, the expectation of a drop first year then leveling out is based on Roadster experience and industry battery studies.
 
Haha - this forums post went from a simple guy who was angry about his 40 KW battery not being able to recover because he cannot balance his car, to a large rant from people wanting answers, ohh boy.

I think it is safe to assume that Tesla as an entity is very new... I will define it, in human terms, in its early childhood stage. It was an infant in 2006-2008 range when they introduced their roadster. After fixing their mistakes and understanding what they did right from wrong, they began to produce the Model S. The Model S has come out and Tesla is only beginning to walk. They probably do not fully understand the battery technology, especially lithium Ion cells, to the fullest extent. That is why there has not been any specific standards that are unified throughout all tech centers. It is more or less people reiterating known standards and knowledge. The Model S owners currently are essentially the lab rats of tomorrows generation, the Gen III vehicle. After a few years of recorded data from all Model S's under all climate conditions and the data crunched, reviewed, and finalized only then can Tesla make statements that will turn into standards for the next generation of vehicle. And until there is well over a decade of information and multiple generation models, can Tesla mature as a fully grown company.

An example of what I meant by collecting data from all Model S's, is if a owner charges at 50% every day compared to his neighbor who decides to charge at 90%, who will have more of a degradation? Another is if each charge at 90%, but both drive different - how does driving style affect degradation? These are all questions that cannot be answers at the moment. It will take years of data to prove any theories right versus wrong.

Not exactly true. The "simple guy" OP (me) was not angry because he couldn't balance his battery. I was (and am) unhappy because I have experienced a 15% drop in range (yes, rated and ideal) in 9000 miles and that the primary response from Tesla I and others with similar complaints had received was "your battery is normal, nothing to see here, move along". I do not know, and have never assumed that I knew, the cause of this problem.

I was also told that a forthcoming firmware release (delayed multiple times) would increase the number of miles displayed, but was not given any indication of how many miles that would be or if that would be what I would consider to be a cosmetic change or result in an actual increase in the range of my car.

It seems to me there are three possibilities for the loss in range -

1. actual, permanent battery degradation,
2. temporary battery degradation to due balancing issues, or
3. poor estimation by software of battery soc.

I would like to believe the answer is not behind door number 1, but although I am absolutely and utterly convinced that Tesla engineers do know the correct answer, Tesla is unwilling to share this information with a bunch of very unhappy and frustrated owners. And although I have corresponded via email with J. Guillen, I have no more substantive information now than I did before I sent my initital email over 5 weeks ago.
 
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No, I don't have a similar loss in my car. You know why? Because my pack is balanced. If the Model S truly did have a problem with degradation, everyone here would have similar losses. Because they don't tells us that some owners follow simple instructions, and some don't.

I'm not sure what simple instructions you are referring to. I keep my car plugged in at all times. I charge to 80% every evening. I range charge and deplete to 40 miles rated remaining 2-4 times a month (what my travel schedule requires). My 100% rated charge was 272 when I received the car and is now at 245, a 10% drop in charge. Other than forum suggestions, there are no other instructions from Tesla than to plug the car in and not worry about it. Given I've had the car for 11 months and 14k miles, that may be a perfectly normal, expected reduction in rated range (assuming it's all a result of degradation, which we don't know).

This isn't a rant; my expectation (based on comments in the forum) has been about 8% degradation in the first year and that's close to what I've experienced. And maybe there are a few miles hidden there as a result of algorithm changes or balancing issues. But I can't pretend that I've been told anything other than "just plug the car in."
 
I'm not sure what simple instructions you are referring to. I keep my car plugged in at all times. I charge to 80% every evening. I range charge and deplete to 40 miles rated remaining 2-4 times a month (what my travel schedule requires). My 100% rated charge was 272 when I received the car and is now at 245, a 10% drop in charge. Other than forum suggestions, there are no other instructions from Tesla than to plug the car in and not worry about it. Given I've had the car for 11 months and 14k miles, that may be a perfectly normal, expected reduction in rated range (assuming it's all a result of degradation, which we don't know).

This isn't a rant; my expectation (based on comments in the forum) has been about 8% degradation in the first year and that's close to what I've experienced. And maybe there are a few miles hidden there as a result of algorithm changes or balancing issues. But I can't pretend that I've been told anything other than "just plug the car in."
I was going to make essentially the same post as you. qwk here is scolding owners for not following simple instructions, but Tesla only has one battery-related suggestion: leave it plugged in all the time. Given that people are having serious early life degradation (indicated or real, it's too early to say) by following this simple instruction, I don't believe a scolding was in order.
 
@JohnQ, when you range charge, do you drive it immediately after the charge finishes or let it sit for a couple of hours? Do you drive it down to 40 miles on a single key turn, or on several shorter segments?

Your pattern of use is one where we wouldn't expect to see range loss, if our guesses about balancing and calibration are right. It would be interesting to see if you're able to recover range by letting it sit longer at 100%, or by driving down to low SOC on a single drive.
 
As I have posted in other threads, my car charges to 209 rated miles when new and charges to 209 rated miles at 17,500. The key is liberal use of range charging. Any time you charge to less than 100%, your pack will go out of balance. The farther from 100% the faster and deeper it will go out of balance. The good news is a mildly out of balance pack does not appear to damage the pack. So it is just a psychological thing to see a large unchanging number.
TeslaRangeCharge3-8-14.jpg
 
qwk - The Standard Rated Charge in my car dropped from about 245 to 214 as of this morning in ideal weather conditions in Bay Area whereas the Rated Range Charge dropped yesterday from what used to be 265-267 to 246 in similar wonderful weather conditions. As others have also reported on this thread that is a significant loss in 16K miles. So, I don't know what comparing apples have to do with this. Have you had a similar loss in your car? If not then you have nothing to complain about.

I have basically identical numbers to you. I have had similar 'loss' in my car.

I would get ~172 miles rated when my car was new on a 'range' charge.
I would get ~245 miles rated when my car was new on a 'standard' charge.

I now get ~255 miles rated on a '100%' charge.
I now get ~215 miles rated on a '90%' charge


If you paid attention to your range you would have noticed that 'standard' and 90% were not equivalent. 'standard' was really 93%. That change took a chunk out of your daily rated range. It isn't a true 'loss' of range.

My battery maintenance consists of always plugging in at home. Only starting charging at 11:15 pm. Charging at 40A. And always charging to 'standard' then '90%'.

Also they changed the way the car displays range in 5.X, where it shows generally less range. This would be another 'loss' even though it is just indicated loss.

I have had some indicated degradation. It is nothing that I am worried about.

I recently got a brand new loaner <2000 miles. It had a 274 mile full range charge, and it had 230 '90%' charge. So I am seeing ~7% apparent degradation over 24k miles, and ~14 months. I would imagine that I could balance my pack and get back 2-3% of that degradation.
 
1. actual, permanent battery degradation,
2. temporary battery degradation to due balancing issues, or
3. poor estimation by software of battery soc.

I strongly suspect it's number 3. For awhile now when I range charged, I could only get my MS60 to about 195/196 (I have 12.5k miles). Yesterday I range charged but unplugged before it finished (was still putting about 2.5kW into the battery). The odd thing was the range never went above 196 for the previous 15 minutes (which it should have at +2.5kW charge rate). I then started driving and 10 miles in I was at 188 miles of range. Very strange since my usage was about 340-360Wh/m which is well above rated range usage. By the end of the day I drove 101 miles, averaged 301Wh/m and my battery meter showed the level just over the 50% mark. Assuming the battery meter is correct, this would imply that I still have well over 200 miles of range.

I personally think Tesla has really tweaked the rated range and gave it numerous factors that effect it. They really should start giving us more details on this as I think it would relieve some concerns about the battery degradation. But for now I'm not going to freak out over it as there are still signs that I have almost 100% of my original capacity still there. FYI, my daily charging is only to 60-75%, further showing a likelihood of a bug in range indication for those of us that don't do 90-100% on a regular basis.
 
Also they changed the way the car displays range in 5.X, where it shows generally less range. This would be another 'loss' even though it is just indicated loss.

^ THIS. Didn't the 5.x firmware change the "zero" calculation, so there are something like 10-15 miles of reserves? We got our car a year ago, and have about 10,600 miles on the odometer. I used to get ~245 rated miles on a "Standard" charge (before the slider), and then about 225 rated miles at 90% with the slider but before 5.x. Now I get 210 at 90%. Haven't those 15 miles have just moved below zero, so you can run on empty?

(I really do wish zero = zero... but that's separate from this topic.)
 
@JohnQ, when you range charge, do you drive it immediately after the charge finishes or let it sit for a couple of hours? Do you drive it down to 40 miles on a single key turn, or on several shorter segments?

Your pattern of use is one where we wouldn't expect to see range loss, if our guesses about balancing and calibration are right. It would be interesting to see if you're able to recover range by letting it sit longer at 100%, or by driving down to low SOC on a single drive.

When I charge to 100% (at 40A) I try to time it so it's ready about 30 minutes before my departure time. This way any miscalculation on my part still results in a full charge when I'm ready to leave but hopefully with a warm battery. I drive the car 170 miles at a high rate of speed and am left with between about 35 and 50 rated remaining depending upon temperatures and speed (it's been about 0-10F lately on the drive so I'm usually closer to 35 remaining). I then charge at 30A at my destination for as long as possible (usually 11 hours) and drive home the same day. Obviously, I don't quite reach a range charge and usually discharge to about 20 miles on the return trip. I usually do this drive about twice a month ... doing it again tomorrow morning.
 
It seems to me there are three possibilities for the loss in range -

1. actual, permanent battery degradation,
2. temporary battery degradation due to balancing issues, or
3. poor estimation by software of battery soc.

My 40 started in the 144-145 rated miles range, but now charges to 127-130 max rated miles (~7,000 mi on car). I have always assumed it was some combination of #1 and #3 above (i.e. part real battery degradation and part revised algorithms with firmware updates). However, after reading many pages here, I am now worried about the battery getting out of balance. Since we (the 40s) are not able to charge the battery above 72% SOC, how can we ever rebalance and get the balance-related losses back? Also, if the battery pack gets too out of balance, is it possible that you could have permanent losses associated with the balance issue?

Concerning the actual range, I have been waiting until things warm up around here (Chicago) so that I can test out actual ranges by duplicating some of my trips from last year (ones that are flat and where you can achieve consistent speeds). The cold weather really affects the Model S's range, so I feel that any comparisons while it is still cold would be somewhat useless and inconsistent.
 
There are experts here but I don't think from what I've read that an out of balance pack is permanent loss of range but it can take a long time to gain it back. Not sure if Tesla has a way for the 40s to do this with a max charge given t is a software limited 60kWh pack.
 
^ THIS. Didn't the 5.x firmware change the "zero" calculation, so there are something like 10-15 miles of reserves? We got our car a year ago, and have about 10,600 miles on the odometer. I used to get ~245 rated miles on a "Standard" charge (before the slider), and then about 225 rated miles at 90% with the slider but before 5.x. Now I get 210 at 90%. Haven't those 15 miles have just moved below zero, so you can run on empty?

(I really do wish zero = zero... but that's separate from this topic.)


Yes 5.6 changed the way range is calculated. I noticed a ~10 mile drop in mine when it happened. I assume this is to 'zero miles' buffer.

Firmware 5.6

Has a picture of the update notes. I am sure if you read all the posts in that thread you will find reference to 'lost' range. It also says true range is unaffected, just displayed range.
 
. Since we (the 40s) are not able to charge the battery above 72% SOC, how can we ever rebalance and get the balance-related losses back?.

Not sure if Tesla has a way for the 40s to do this with a max charge given t is a software limited 60kWh pack.

I am fairly certain that there is no way for 40's to be rebalanced unless they are unlocked or future firmware upgrades allow for balancing at any charge level. Unless one of these happens, I believe that the max. range of 40's will continue to diminish.

A 40 owner that I am in touch with brought his car into his service center, where they gave him a loaner, unlocked his 40, did a max charge, drove it to 0 and repeated. They then again limited his car to 40kwh. He gained 10 miles and went from 116 to 126. Also put 400 miles on his car and tires. Not really a viable solution even if all service centers were willing to do this.
 
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I am fairly certain that there is no way for 40's to be rebalanced unless they are unlocked or future firmware upgrades allow for balancing at any charge level. Unless one of these happens, I believe that the max. range of 40's will continue to diminish.

A 40 owner that I am in touch with brought his car into his service center, where they gave him a loaner, unlocked his 40, did a max charge, drove it to 0 and repeated. They then again limited his car to 40kwh. He gained 10 miles and went from 116 to 127. Also put 400 miles on his car and tires. Not really a viable solution even if all service centers were willing to do this.

this seems lame. there should be a way to cycle a battery without driving the car to discharge it.. 'bad' engineering for that part if that is the case.
if the Tesla outlet can pull >90kW there should be a way to discharge the same through the port I'd think?