For those owners unhappy with drop in maximum charged range

[Andrew]

Yes 5.6 changed the way range is calculated. I noticed a ~10 mile drop in mine when it happened. I assume this is to 'zero miles' buffer.

Firmware 5.6

Has a picture of the update notes. I am sure if you read all the posts in that thread you will find reference to 'lost' range. It also says true range is unaffected, just displayed range.

Right. So for everyone (except for 40KW owners) who is frustrated by that extra 10 or 15 miles of reduced range, this explains that it's purely software and not increased degradation. Why isn't this information putting the issue to rest?

 

[Gizmotoy]

Right. So for everyone (except for 40KW owners) who is frustrated by that extra 10 or 15 miles of reduced range, this explains that it's purely software and not increased degradation. Why isn't this information putting the issue to rest?

Because the new algorithm isn't the whole story. Some of us took delivery after 5.6 and are also seeing a good amount of degradation (indicated or real, it's hard to tell). My 100% point is down 8 miles so far, and I only have 2300 miles on the car.

Fingers crossed it's a balance issue.

 

[Kipernicus]

Yes 5.6 changed the way range is calculated. I noticed a ~10 mile drop in mine when it happened. I assume this is to 'zero miles' buffer.

Firmware 5.6

Has a picture of the update notes. I am sure if you read all the posts in that thread you will find reference to 'lost' range. It also says true range is unaffected, just displayed range.

But why do new cars still show 265 or greater miles at 100% even with the latest firmware? I don't understand how "new software" can make old cars have lower range (or hidden below zero, however you want to call it) but not new cars.

 

[wormhole]

No, I don't have a similar loss in my car. You know why? Because my pack is balanced. If the Model S truly did have a problem with degradation, everyone here would have similar losses. Because they don't tells us that some owners follow simple instructions, and some don't.

I see, so you are saying all car owners are having the exact same experience irrespective of battery pack version, time built, etc, etc? There are plenty of people who have noted in these threads of battery issues and degradation.

Part of owning a Model S - I thought - in addition to its awesomeness is its simplicity. In fact, Tesla is so confident in its battery that they have a 'no fault warranty', so while you claim you've properly 'balanced' your battery, other than plugging it in, i'm not sure what you are referring to.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure what simple instructions you are referring to. I keep my car plugged in at all times. I charge to 80% every evening. I range charge and deplete to 40 miles rated remaining 2-4 times a month (what my travel schedule requires). My 100% rated charge was 272 when I received the car and is now at 245, a 10% drop in charge. Other than forum suggestions, there are no other instructions from Tesla than to plug the car in and not worry about it. Given I've had the car for 11 months and 14k miles, that may be a perfectly normal, expected reduction in rated range (assuming it's all a result of degradation, which we don't know).

This isn't a rant; my expectation (based on comments in the forum) has been about 8% degradation in the first year and that's close to what I've experienced. And maybe there are a few miles hidden there as a result of algorithm changes or balancing issues. But I can't pretend that I've been told anything other than "just plug the car in."

JohnQ, do you know if you have an A or B pack?

 

[Bardlebee]

All this talk about A and B packs. I am assuming the A is an older pack and there have been problems with them? So new cars are being shipped with the B pack?

 

[dsm363]

All this talk about A and B packs. I am assuming the A is an older pack and there have been problems with them? So new cars are being shipped with the B pack?

New cars have D packs I think. I wouldn't worry about this pack issue with a new car since it wouldn't apply.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

All this talk about A and B packs. I am assuming the A is an older pack and there have been problems with them? So new cars are being shipped with the B pack?

the A packs weren't going ever die so Tesla started changing firmware to show degradation and produced 'new' packs that will last for your warranty period.
then you can get another new one :tongue:

or not

my car seems fine for 20k mi of 'abuse'

 

[glhs272]

I am fairly certain that there is no way for 40's to be rebalanced unless they are unlocked or future firmware upgrades allow for balancing at any charge level. Unless one of these happens, I believe that the max. range of 40's will continue to diminish.

A 40 owner that I am in touch with brought his car into his service center, where they gave him a loaner, unlocked his 40, did a max charge, drove it to 0 and repeated. They then again limited his car to 40kwh. He gained 10 miles and went from 116 to 126. Also put 400 miles on his car and tires. Not really a viable solution even if all service centers were willing to do this.

Interesting. So you are confirming that the issues with 40 owners loosing range is mostly a balance and calculation problem. Balancing fixes the problem. Range charge is necessary. And I point out again, the non-40 owners who charge like they own a 40 by never charging over 80% will be seeing this problem too.

In my experience with balancing, it is simply time spent at max charge that is really doing the balancing. Meaning the whole drive to 0 miles part is probably unnecessary, other than to reset the range calculation which the owner could simply do themselves. They need to let it charge fully to 100% and let it sit there overnight. Maybe the next morning running the HVAC a little to bring the charge down a bit (to 90%) then re-charge 100% again. Leave it there for a while. Repeat if necessary. This would serve the purpose of balancing it with out driving it. On the last range charge, let the owner drive it down to below 25% to reset the calculation. So Tesla could simply allow you to do this all from home if they can over the air temporarily allow full range charging.

 

[JohnQ]

JohnQ, do you know if you have an A or B pack?

A pack.

 

[qwk]

I see, so you are saying all car owners are having the exact same experience irrespective of battery pack version, time built, etc, etc? There are plenty of people who have noted in these threads of battery issues and degradation.

Part of owning a Model S - I thought - in addition to its awesomeness is its simplicity. In fact, Tesla is so confident in its battery that they have a 'no fault warranty', so while you claim you've properly 'balanced' your battery, other than plugging it in, i'm not sure what you are referring to.

The car will drift out of balance if you set the slider to anything less than 90%, or unplug it right away after a charge is finished(even if at 90%). There is nothing wrong with an out of balance pack, but getting it back into balance takes some effort and time. This is nothing new, and has been discussed many times in roadster threads.

 

[wormhole]

The car will drift out of balance if you set the slider to anything less than 90%, or unplug it right away after a charge is finished(even if at 90%). There is nothing wrong with an out of balance pack, but getting it back into balance takes some effort and time. This is nothing new, and has been discussed many times in roadster threads.

I see, and so your 'source' of this is the forums? Not directly from Tesla? I don't recall seeing anything in the owners manual about this that advises owners to 'balance' their batteries or anything at all about conditioning them. Do you have a source other than the forums? In fact, I've had Ownership Hotline tell me that its best to drive your car almost immediately after having charged the car, which is direct contrast to your first sentence...

 

[stopcrazypp]

In my experience with balancing, it is simply time spent at max charge that is really doing the balancing. Meaning the whole drive to 0 miles part is probably unnecessary, other than to reset the range calculation which the owner could simply do themselves.

Yep. Tesla uses "top-balancing" which means only the time spent at 100% SOC matters (in terms of showing the max range number). The driving to 0 miles part is only necessary to reset the miles calculation.

However, depending on how complex the BMS is, the driving to 0 miles part may be necessary to correct the voltage to SOC mapping (so that the numbers shown when you are below 100% SOC are also correct). The only exception is if Tesla has a software trigger that doesn't start a balance cycle until the battery has been through the whole 0 miles part (although that doesn't make much sense). This whole thing would be a whole lot easier if Tesla just added a "balance battery" mode, although that goes against the "keeping it simple" thing.

 

[glhs272]

Yep. Tesla uses "top-balancing" which means only the time spent at 100% SOC matters (in terms of showing the max range number). The driving to 0 miles part is only necessary to reset the miles calculation.

However, depending on how complex the BMS is, the driving to 0 miles part may be necessary to correct the voltage to SOC mapping (so that the numbers shown when you are below 100% SOC are also correct). The only exception is if Tesla has a software trigger that doesn't start a balance cycle until the battery has been through the whole 0 miles part (although that doesn't make much sense). This whole thing would be a whole lot easier if Tesla just added a "balance battery" mode, although that goes against the "keeping it simple" thing.

Actually a "Battery Balance" mode would be kinda cool. It would be like setting your oven to "clean". It will do a full range charge, hold there for a night, run HVAC down, recharge, repeat...

 

[qwk]

I see, and so your 'source' of this is the forums? Not directly from Tesla? I don't recall seeing anything in the owners manual about this that advises owners to 'balance' their batteries or anything at all about conditioning them. Do you have a source other than the forums? In fact, I've had Ownership Hotline tell me that its best to drive your car almost immediately after having charged the car, which is direct contrast to your first sentence...

No, my source is years of experience and research. Obviously it has worked, since my range charge is 265+ after a year and 15k miles.

 

[djp]

When I charge to 100% (at 40A) I try to time it so it's ready about 30 minutes before my departure time. This way any miscalculation on my part still results in a full charge when I'm ready to leave but hopefully with a warm battery. I drive the car 170 miles at a high rate of speed and am left with between about 35 and 50 rated remaining depending upon temperatures and speed (it's been about 0-10F lately on the drive so I'm usually closer to 35 remaining). I then charge at 30A at my destination for as long as possible (usually 11 hours) and drive home the same day. Obviously, I don't quite reach a range charge and usually discharge to about 20 miles on the return trip. I usually do this drive about twice a month ... doing it again tomorrow morning.

Interesting. Your calibration should be fine since you're exercising the full range of the battery on a single key turn. It's possible that 30 min at full charge isn't enough time to balance. Try leaving it there for a few hours next time (not ideal for battery life or pre-heating, but would confirm that balancing is the issue as an experiment).

 

[bonnie]

No, my source is years of experience and research. Obviously it has worked, since my range charge is 265+ after a year and 15k miles.

Sounds awfully like "because I said so".

It sounds an awfully lot like experience talking.

- - - Updated - - -

Moderator note: A post was banished to Snippiness for personal attacks. Keep it civil, folks.

 

[ckessel]

Since my previous post got banished, I'll try to ask politely.

First you said:

Because they don't tells us that some owners follow simple instructions, and some don't.

Now you've said:

No, my source is years of experience and research. Obviously it has worked, since my range charge is 265+ after a year and 15k miles.

Which leaves me wondering, is keeping in balance a matter of simple instructions or years of personal experience and research?

 

[qwk]

Since there seems to be a level of hate around the rated range issue, I thought that I would clarify a few things.

Does anyone here really think that Tesla would radically modify their proven Roadster technology when it comes to the BMS? Nobody here has to take my word for it. The roadster has been out for six years, and there is a ton of information on it both here and from Tesla. Unfortunately Tesla has just taken the plug it in and forget it stance with the Model S, which isn't helping much with regards to all of the different variables possible. Add in different firmware revisions which add even more confusion, and you have hundreds of owners freaking out.

There have been a few OCD roadster people try to outguess Tesla's battery software engineering, and strictly used storage mode for charging. Guess what happened? Range loss due to an out of balance pack.

BTW, ownership experience just reads from a script, how anyone can take their very vague answers as gospel is beyond me.

- - - Updated - - -

Since my previous post got banished, I'll try to ask politely.

First you said:


Now you've said:

Which leaves me wondering, is keeping in balance a matter of simple instructions or years of personal experience and research?

Both. If one keeps their car plugged in, and charges to at least 90%, they won't be posting about max rated range numbers below 260. Do you really think it's coincidence that both roadster and Model s owners that do the above have little to no range loss?

 

[ckessel]

Both. If one keeps their car plugged in, and charges to at least 90%, they won't be posting about max rated range numbers below 260. Do you really think it's coincidence that both roadster and Model s owners that do the above have little to no range loss?

I plug my car about every other night have always charged to either Standard (pre-slider) or the max daily line (90%) since the slider.

I have 250 max range at 14 months and 18,000 miles. This would seem to run counter to your description.

 

[NigelM]

.. If one keeps their car plugged in, and charges to at least 90%, they won't be posting about max rated range numbers below 260.

^This is me with both Roadster and MS. Plug-in both cars every night to standard charge level with very few exceptions, regardless of miles driven. Each car gets range charged about 3-4 times per year as and when I need the safety factor. No complaints from me about degradation.