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Frustrated with FSD timeline

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Considering that, they are way farther along then anyone.
I highly doubt "they are way farther along then anyone". At least from Tesla's vs. Waymo's CA disengagement reports, it seems Waymo is WAY ahead.

Accelerating the pace of learning – Waymo – Medium mentions
In the last few years we’ve amassed over 2.5 million miles of autonomous driving on public roads. We’ve taught our cars to handle some of the most complex driving tasks (e.g., navigating construction zones), and how to interact with other drivers (e.g., merging into a lane during rush hour). We can handle unexpected situations, from cars driving the wrong-way down the road to horses crossing our path. It was this level of sophistication that enabled us to complete the world’s first truly self-driving ride on public roads at the end of 2015.
...
We’ve been able to make dramatic improvements to our technology because we use each of these disengages to teach and refine our car (that’s why we set our thresholds for disengages conservatively). For each event we can create hundreds — and sometimes thousands — of related scenarios in simulation, varying the parameters such as the position and speed of other road users in the area. This allows us to do a more thorough job identifying the root cause of any disengage and resolving any problems in a robust way. Last year alone, we drove over a billion miles in simulation, with a focus on tackling some of the toughest situations people could encounter on the road.
If Tesla is in fact testing on public roads somewhere else, where are those places?

How many miles in public roads has Tesla accumulated of actual full-self driving (NOT the current "Autopilot" implementation in customer's hands now), esp. in more complex city situations?
 
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Actually Audi's Level 3 (traffic jam speeds on highways) Audi A8 is coming this year, so 2017. Though of course it is possible deliveries only happen in 2018 and U.S. definitely only in 2018. I would expect to see some cars delivered in Germany in 2017. Audi has been working on their self-driving for years and this is the first car that will have it. It is not an Autopilot 1 kind of thing at all, it will actually self-drive, with Audi taking responsibility for its driving and letting you concentrate on other things, within a limited scenario..

Do you have a quote from Audi with that bolded (by mine) promise?
 
Do you have a quote from Audi with that bolded (by mine) promise?

7zCDa1k.jpg


Original post: Another Model X crash, driver says autopilot was engaged
 
Because radars work in conditions where visible light cameras can't (fog, rain, snow). Radars also have many, many disadvantages. IR cameras have some advantages, too. These are not trivial problems to solve!

Elon's argument that eight cameras with the right kind of computer vision ought to be better than two human eyes is compelling; however, he doesn't have a cerebral cortex with billions of years evolution in his processor either. ;) But, seriously, did you ever look at your rear-view camera during rain? I do a lot in Seattle. Utterly unusable. Yet somehow my two human eyes manage to drive. I don't see the current sensor set being designed to be 99.99% robust, thus L4 seems doable, but L5 seems like a big stretch to me. Just my opinion...

If there are conditions where visible light cameras can't see, then a human cannot either... Cars typically travel in a forward direction and there's a forward radar for redundancy.

As far as rear view cameras during the rain... it's typically like that after you drive and not before unless you never clean it off. Secondly you aren't driving in reverse for nearly as long, fast, or as far as you travel forward. The heating element might help here for the rear camera after being hit by road water (they aren't typically hit by rain water unless it was a poor design). The front (most important) cameras (like the eyes) are cleaned off with windshield wipers. If snow covers the car and windshield then neither a human or a computer should drive until it's cleared off.
Computers have already simulated simple animal brains that took billions of years to evolve. The human brain is more complex and also very general while the driving task is far, far, less complex. Also one must consider that the radar and pixels of the cameras provide a finite number of inputs. The number of objects and signs are finite, the paths from point A to B are finite, physics doesn't change. While there may be some strange scenarios that people like to come up with, they still involve the same building blocks.

The difference between L4 and L5 is the driving modes. The examples given are:
Driving mode is a type of driving scenario with characteristic dynamic driving task requirements (e.g., expressway merging, high speed cruising, low speed traffic jam, closed-campus operations, etc.).
https://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

I don't believe having more sensors will have anything to do with it's ability to do those driving modes. If anything, having more sensors would improve the number of possible weather conditions it'd be able to operate in... humans have trouble in bad weather too and there's a dramatic increase in accidents.

Basically you can have level 5 systems that are not capable of driving in a hurricane. That doesn't mean they aren't level 5.

There are still people who think driving is an unsolvable problem and/or won't be solved for decades. These people fail to recognize that we've been working toward self driving cars for nearly 50 years and the advances in parallel computing power over the last 20 years has been mind boggling. This isn't merely a robot in the driver seat that checks it's mirrors periodically, which would be hilarious and awesome btw (think Johnny 5), but instead a system that maintains a 360 degree 3D map of it's environment at all times and makes decisions based on more information than a human at any given point in time. That said a human has the benefit of experience (experienced drivers at least) and the hope is that Tesla's fleet learning will fill in this gap.

I don't think more sensors are needed necessarily, just a well trained machine.
 
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I guess you also missed that Elon had a TED talk where he discussed that the video was using only cameras/GPS and no other sensors and that they are working on FSD based only on vision and GPS and not requiring any other sensors. Considering that, they are way farther along then anyone. It really is just a matter of time to train the machine with raw data coming now from 75,000 or so HW2 cars driving millions or even billions of miles at about 100,000,000 miles a month. He also stated very confidently that they would do a coast to coast, parking lot to parking lot, demo by Nov-Dec of this year and that you could change the destination to a different city at the last minute and it could still do it, meaning they wouldn't just be using a vehicle trained on one route. I am sure others could do this route by then as well, the big difference is that they require $7,000 lidars and super computers in their trunk that consume more power then the car by about 2-3x. This means that Tesla will have 100,000-150,000 in the wild by the time this demo happens and in theory, they could roll that update to those cars, and will actually, to enable FSD at anytime they want. They will update the software so that they car can drive in shadow mode even if its not enabled and it can also take action as a safety measure. Think of it as AEB on steroids, taking over the car in very specific situations.

It is bizarre to think that Tesla is way further along than anyone. Tesla has not even implemented basic safety functions post mobileye. Waymo is in an actual beta of a taxi service with civilians requesting an autonomous vehicles from an android phone. Critically, Waymo vehicles take non-Waymo employees on routes selected by the customer. This is not a demo of a pre-selected route.

It is apparently a post-fact world. Make enormous claims in the right way and it becomes reality for a significant portion of the population.

Big self serving predictions on a TED talk are highly reliable predictors of b.s.
 
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Thank you! It indeed seems, that this Audi's promised system is superior to the Tesla's current system. It will be very interesting to see, whether in December this year Audi says that you can browse your email or whatch a video, while Tesla says that you need to have your hands on the wheel! But as that article said, it needs the law change in EU.

Audi's Level 3 promise is superior to an extent, compared to Tesla's EAP promise which still is Level 2 basically.

That said, Tesla's AP2 FSD "promise" is of course beyond the limited scenario Audi talks as their first self-driving generation. Assuming Tesla can get it working at a level when they can allow Level 3-5 freedoms for the driver...
 
It is bizarre to think that Tesla is way further along than anyone. Tesla has not even implemented basic safety functions post mobileye. Waymo is in an actual beta of a taxi service with civilians requesting an autonomous vehicles from an android phone. Critically, Waymo vehicles take non-Waymo employees on routes selected by the customer. This is not a demo of a pre-selected route.

It is apparently a post-fact world. Make enormous claims in the right way and it becomes reality for a significant portion of the population.

Big self serving predictions on a TED talk are highly reliable predictors of b.s.

While I do get your point, and obviously Elon uses hype to market/advertise Tesla (sometimes rather unethically it would seem to casual observer), software updates are a unique differentiator for Tesla. A Model S/X today is the only car on the market today that has a chance at being self-driving in the future. Others do not have that chance yet as their manufacturers are taking a more incremental approach - they may do some subset of the AP2 promise better than AP2, but there is no (or no likely) promise of anything more than that...

I'm not sure we can say Tesla is further along than anyone in self-driving. I guess that's not true. But Tesla is further along in shipping a product with a possibility of self-driving some day, than anyone else.

That said, I do sympathize with your point. But luckily it isn't just about outrageous claims either. Tesla has a history of shipping a portion of their promises as software updates and can be expected to do so in this instance as well... not all promises, likely, but a portion.
 
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In the meanwhile, clearly the AEB update was a ploy. Consumer Reports got their AEB (limited) but I've gotten nothing. Car is on wifi all the time.

BTW, checked data use and other than spikes every hour or so, nothing sustained in terms of data transfer anymore (been checking for a week now). That data being uploaded earlier might have been a limited deal.
 
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In the meanwhile, clearly the AEB update was a ploy. Consumer Reports got their AEB (limited) but I've gotten nothing. Car is on wifi all the time.

BTW, checked data use and other than spikes every hour or so, nothing sustained in terms of data transfer anymore (been checking for a week now). That data being uploaded earlier might have been a limited deal.
Supposedly they have to stagger the OTA deployments due to server/network constraints.
 
It is bizarre to think that Tesla is way further along than anyone. Tesla has not even implemented basic safety functions post mobileye. Waymo is in an actual beta of a taxi service with civilians requesting an autonomous vehicles from an android phone. Critically, Waymo vehicles take non-Waymo employees on routes selected by the customer. This is not a demo of a pre-selected route.

It is apparently a post-fact world. Make enormous claims in the right way and it becomes reality for a significant portion of the population.

Big self serving predictions on a TED talk are highly reliable predictors of b.s.

Its bizarre to think that Tesla is not ahead of everyone else. Here is why:

1. Tesla has invested hundreds of millions in hardware that is already in over 75,000 cars on the road today. These cars are capable for fully autonomous driving and Tesla is already charging a fee for this feature.
2. Current solutions from companies like Waymo and Nissan and Cruze Automation require supercomputers in the trunk. In the recent Nissan video, the Nissan guy says the computer takes up the whole trunk and a large chunk of the cars power. Those cars are also bristling with sensors that would never fly in a final product. Tesla has already shrunk the packaging to fit inside the car and you dont even notice it.
3. None of us knows how far along Tesla is or what discoveries they have made. Imagine you had an army of engineers working on something, do you think that maybe, just maybe they have made some advances that are not yet in the public domain?

"Critically, Waymo vehicles take non-Waymo employees on routes selected by the customer. This is not a demo of a pre-selected route."

Critically, Waymo does this in a package that is not fit for production. In fact, you have no idea that this is not happening today with Tesla employees.

You say post-fact world, I say that you should remain open minded and not assume you know what the facts are. Logically, is Elon really going to risk everything by over promising this feature set when he has no clue if its something that he can deliver? He has had many chances to walk back the promises and has doubled down. I realize that he has over-promised before, but he has delivered for the most part on many things that others said where absolutely impossible.

"Tesla has not even implemented basic safety functions post mobileye."

AP2 is not FSD. Completely different solutions. AP2 only exists because of the issues with Mobileye and I would say that at least AP2 never killed anyone so I am fine being patient. AP2 is a bandaid that was required because of souring relationship with Mobileye. Tesla has stated that they wanted to use Mobileye going forward and develop FSD on its own hardware and Mobileye declined, which forced them to come up with their own solution. These are not post-facts, but actual facts.
 
Has anyone simply asked Musk where and how they're doing their testing?

Seems like an obvious question, so maybe I've just missed the info.

No, instead of asking that, they ask when you can go to sleep on your trip and wake up at your destination. My guess is that for the TED talks, the questions are known in advance and what Elon will answer and what he will not is known as well. There is another investor call today so maybe?
 
If there are conditions where visible light cameras can't see, then a human cannot either... Cars typically travel in a forward direction and there's a forward radar for redundancy.

...
Computers have already simulated simple animal brains that took billions of years to evolve. The human brain is more complex and also very general while the driving task is far, far, less complex. Also one must consider that the radar and pixels of the cameras provide a finite number of inputs. The number of objects and signs are finite, the paths from point A to B are finite, physics doesn't change. While there may be some strange scenarios that people like to come up with, they still involve the same building blocks.

...

I don't believe having more sensors will have anything to do with it's ability to do those driving modes. If anything, having more sensors would improve the number of possible weather conditions it'd be able to operate in... humans have trouble in bad weather too and there's a dramatic increase in accidents.

Basically you can have level 5 systems that are not capable of driving in a hurricane. That doesn't mean they aren't level 5.

...

I don't think more sensors are needed necessarily, just a well trained machine.

OK, computers haven't fully emulated the simplest insect brain yet, sadly. Sensors with "super-human" perception will give AI-based cars an edge, but won't solve the problem. However, that MIGHT go a long way to address the huge disadvantage that computers have against the rather amazing human cerebral cortex, and (unfortunately) "driving" and "highways" have evolved based on the feeble capabilities of that cerebral cortex, not deep learning neural nets.

Do I subjectively believe in Elon's argument that cameras alone will be sufficient because all humans have is two crude eyes? Yes, MOSTLY, but those cameras are not backed up by the evolved human brain, so the effective visual and execution system starts off way behind in the race. Things like LIDAR, radars, and IR sensors help level the playing field, but they might not be essential. We don't know yet since NOBODY has delivered this stuff.

L5 (and for that matter L4) won't be marketable until they are at least 10x better than humans at the same tasks, so there is also that limitation (which Elon acknowledges). L4 is feasible because it can always just give up and dump it on the human. L5 MUST perform in everything but a hurricane.

But remember - I'm SKEPTICAL, but I also bought a Tesla and EAP and FSD, betting that they would provide enough capabilities to make me and my family safer. So I kinda bought the ticket to be skeptical and demanding. ;)
 
Do I subjectively believe in Elon's argument that cameras alone will be sufficient because all humans have is two crude eyes? Yes, MOSTLY, but those cameras are not backed up by the evolved human brain, so the effective visual and execution system starts off way behind in the race. Things like LIDAR, radars, and IR sensors help level the playing field, but they might not be essential. We don't know yet since NOBODY has delivered this stuff.

L5 (and for that matter L4) won't be marketable until they are at least 10x better than humans at the same tasks, so there is also that limitation (which Elon acknowledges). L4 is feasible because it can always just give up and dump it on the human. L5 MUST perform in everything but a hurricane.

You cannot say that LIDAR and IR sensors help level the playing field because you're just adding more sensors to a computer which you feel cannot make rational path planning decisions based on present and perceived future obstacles based on velocity and trajectory.

You can't say L5 and L4 won't be marketable until they are at least 10x better than humans at the same tasks... even 2x better would save lives and that's the initial target. 10x is later on and probably just a matter of software and possibly upgraded processing. L4 does not dump it on a human necessarily, it can do some driving modes and not others. This doesn't mean that it has to hand off to a human, at L4 it could simply pull over and stop if a human doesn't intervene.

What I see in the nearer term, within the next two years, is a hybrid L2/L4 but not L3. (L3 involves plenty of time for hand offs). At first, I believe we are going to see something more like AP 1 or EAP on AP 2 where the driver still needs to be paying attention but may have to intervene immediately, at any time. The number of driving modes will increase such as the ability to stop at stop lights, drive in neighborhoods, make turns, etc. This is why Elon said you probably won't be able to sleep or read a book while driving at least for the next two years. Once the system gets even better and data shows it's safe, then it will be presented to regulators, and we may see true L4/L5 capability without the need be as vigilant.

L5 cars will not be perfect, it's not true that it MUST perform in everything but a hurricane. There are various other situations where humans are incapable such as bad rain storms where even with full wipers you still can't see, or at super high speed winds which can knock cars and trucks off the road, or very heavy fog with no visibility (at least radar would have an advantage over a human here), really bad snow storm, roads covered in unsafe sheets of ice, if it has a flat tire, if it's been in an accident, sensor failure, etc. All L5 cars should do in such situations is put hazards on, pull over to a safe location, and possibly call for help. There's no good reason an L4/L5 car or a human for that matter should continue driving or else they risk their safety or the safety of others.

You don't need an evolved human brain to drive, you simply need a good set of rules and experience. One rule which has served me pretty well is "don't hit stuff" ;). When it's all said and done, I think this system should be capable of that for the most part... I mean stuff happens.

Next time you travel somewhere, try to follow all traffic laws to the letter, no speeding, no following too close, etc and you can even use my rule of "don't hit stuff" and really see how difficult it is to get from point A to point B. You might be bored to tears driving like a grandma, but you'll realize that the vast majority of driving is super simple if you know what objects are, where they are located, and how fast they are travelling, plus knowing traffic signs/signals helps. Other than that, it's just a matter of handling corner cases which, unfortunately, happens to be the topic of the majority of conversations surrounding autonomous driving.

There are people who say that if a car can't handle situation X then it's not L5/L4 etc. First, it's more about the driving mode then the situation, and as stated there are many situations where humans fail.

Let's look at two tables:

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FhCXSn.jpg


In the last ImageNet competitions have had computers beat humans at image recognition, computers can make decisions faster than a human and based on a more complete picture of their environment. How many times does a human get into an accident because they "didn't see them there"? The evolved human brain isn't helping very much here.

Full self driving, even without being L5 or even L4 can help save lives and prevent many typical human accidents. Will it be perfect? It doesn't even have to be close to perfect, as we all agree, just better than a human.
 
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OK, computers haven't fully emulated the simplest insect brain yet, sadly. Sensors with "super-human" perception will give AI-based cars an edge, but won't solve the problem. However, that MIGHT go a long way to address the huge disadvantage that computers have against the rather amazing human cerebral cortex, and (unfortunately) "driving" and "highways" have evolved based on the feeble capabilities of that cerebral cortex, not deep learning neural nets.

Do I subjectively believe in Elon's argument that cameras alone will be sufficient because all humans have is two crude eyes? Yes, MOSTLY, but those cameras are not backed up by the evolved human brain, so the effective visual and execution system starts off way behind in the race. Things like LIDAR, radars, and IR sensors help level the playing field, but they might not be essential. We don't know yet since NOBODY has delivered this stuff.

L5 (and for that matter L4) won't be marketable until they are at least 10x better than humans at the same tasks, so there is also that limitation (which Elon acknowledges). L4 is feasible because it can always just give up and dump it on the human. L5 MUST perform in everything but a hurricane.

But remember - I'm SKEPTICAL, but I also bought a Tesla and EAP and FSD, betting that they would provide enough capabilities to make me and my family safer. So I kinda bought the ticket to be skeptical and demanding. ;)

I agree. One major problem with passive only sensors is uncertainty about the driving path. Tesla is now working to build a catalog of objects the car sees. But ambiguity is a problem, as can be seen now with things like overhanging branches. A forward lidar unit can finely resolve even small objects in the planned driving path. I expect that many developers are horrified with the idea of driving a vehicle at 80 mph into uncertainty.

The reason Tesla doesn't have lidar is that there is no lidar that meets spec and price for a production vehicle today. Google, Veladyne and small companies are developing those units.

It is amusing that some people think that Tesla was making an optimal decision with a camera only system. Musk is simply playing the cards he was dealt.

I do think the current cars will achieve a superset of AP1 and near full autonomy on controlled access highways. Musk will simply blame regulators when the current cars are deemed insufficiently safe in complex urban environments. He is already hedging on the processor unit and the hardware is only six months old.

Tesla is damn lucky that the apparent level 5 leader is not a car company and far too big to be purchased by a car company Musk can try his short cut to full autonomy, but still fall back to Waymo if necessary.

Velodyne Announces a Solid-State Lidar
 
A forward lidar unit can finely resolve even small objects in the planned driving path. I expect that many developers are horrified with the idea of driving a vehicle at 80 mph into uncertainty.

The reason Tesla doesn't have lidar is that there is no lidar that meets spec and price for a production vehicle today. Google, Veladyne and small companies are developing those units.

It is amusing that some people think that Tesla was making an optimal decision with a camera only system. Musk is simply playing the cards he was dealt.

His advisory role is also to ensure DOT or NHTSA won't require all future cars to have LIDAR or any V2V communications.
 
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These cars are capable for fully autonomous driving

Umm, maybe not?

Tesla CEO Elon Musk says ‘almost all new cars will be self-driving within 10 years’

"Interestingly, he hinted today during the talk that Tesla could need to upgrade the computer in the new vehicles in order to enable fully self-driving."

None of us knows how far along Tesla is or what discoveries they have made

True. They could also be dramatically behind, and counting on Twitter/TED/Blog hype to buy time. EM tells everyone he has the best and smartest working on AP2 and FSD, because, well....he tells us they are....

Logically, is Elon really going to risk everything by over promising this feature set when he has no clue if its something that he can deliver?

Yes. Yes, I believe he would.