FSDtester#1
Craves Electrolytes
I did, tirerack is 14 days out. Tire on order. I also ordered a Falken tire that is coming Tuesday so I can drive until the Michelin comes in. Will keep Falken as backup
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FSD Beta 10.11
- Thread starter EVNow
- Start date
They got in trouble because the UI explicitly stated that rolling stops was a thing. If Tesla didn't mention that FSD supports that behavior, I doubt they would have attracted any attention. Just like any errant move FSD makes today, it's not forcing recalls for each of those things. So a car that rolls through a stop sign is seen as a mistake, as much as cutting a corner during a turn is a mistake. In this manner, Tesla could make FSD beta account for more human-like driving and not be seen as flaunting the law. Yes, they still are, but it's all about perception.
Therefore, Tesla should just have the car stop at the intersection where it has the most visibility while not encroaching into other lanes, and not advertise in any way that this is the intended behavior. I have never seen a police trap for stopping beyond a stop sign, so as far as breaking the law goes, this one is as minor as it gets.
Foolishness by NTSB. Tesla needs to change creep so it moves quickly forward otherwise the disengagement rate will remain high but we all know that. I go back to the statement that Tesla brought this upon themselves by allowing rolling Stop signs to 5-7mph frequently especially in California
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Ah - but there’s a significant difference between errant behavior and behavior that’s intentional and programmed by design. I agree that had they not announced it the NTSB likely would have said nothing but think back to the VW diesel scandal - once VW got caught they payed big time.
Why is the NTSB foolish for requiring FSD to follow the law? What would happen when someone got a ticket for rolling through a stop sign? I can see the class action lawsuit now. If Tesla ever wants to get the FSD software approved they need to follow the rules. Not sure why that’s so difficult to understand.
As far as disengagements go, all you need to do is goose the accelerator a little if you got someone riding your tail. Not that tough.
Because following the law is less safe. Who comes to a complete stop 10-30 feet before the actual intersection when the Stop sign isn't close to the intersection which is the case in many older states? I either disengage and ride up to the edge of the intersection which is technically illegal but much safer then NTSB wants, or ride the accelerator which means FSD is limited. What is the long term goal of FSD if you have to use the accelerator frequently? Eventually I suspect NTSB will make some changes realizing they have forced poor driving.
@sleepdoc- just curious if you're aware of the specific language that requires you to stop at the Stop sign versus stopping where you need to be to make a safe turning decision. Or are we just assuming? The change NTSB required for rolling thru Stop Signs was logical since the car was never stopping. That is not the situation here. Besides I didn't purchase FSD to use the accelerator pedal throughout the drive. Ironic that a 3 way T-intersection without a Stop Sign drives better then 3 way intersections with a Stop Sign and it's legal.
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I assume you've called out this discrepancy via the fsdbeta email?
It is the same with red lights. Was driving today and paying specific attention with the rate of deceleration at a red light. It comes to a stop exactly like a human would for a red light. But a stop sign? It slows to a crawl really early and takes it's time coasting to the stop sign. Then it stops. Then it slowly creeps to the edge of the intersection and stops again. Hesitates, especially if there are no cars around, takes the turn, and then hard-accelerates as if to make up the time.
I also have T intersections without stop signs leaving my neighborhood, and my car pulls up to the intersection faster than if there were a stop sign there.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
From the Minnesota Driver's Manual:
Seriously, I get that you're annoyed about FSD making you stop before you normally do, but that's the law, even if people routinely flout it and you really don't have an argument for saying Tesla should deliberately program illegal behavior into the FSD algorithms without the government's blessing.
Yeah i think we're going to be stuck with lots of accelerator pedal interventions for a long while. More so here in New England where the intersection angles and lane markings are pretty terrible, and the driving culture here earns us nicknames like Massholes. Here more than anywhere else I've driven, the letter of the law is rarely complied with and also less enforced. I really don't see a good solution for blending FSD driving with human driving in this area.
I chuckle when I watch Dirty Tesla do all of his FSD testing AT the speed limit. People here will honk and give you the bird as they illegally pass you for driving that slow. But I get it. I learned how to drive in the south, and people are much more patient and tolerant. The intersections and road design is also much better.
I chuckle when I watch Dirty Tesla do all of his FSD testing AT the speed limit. People here will honk and give you the bird as they illegally pass you for driving that slow. But I get it. I learned how to drive in the south, and people are much more patient and tolerant. The intersections and road design is also much better.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
To clarify it is NHTSA (which handles recalls) that is requiring this. This has nothing to do with NTSB (which is a completely different organization that can only investigate incidents and offer recommendations, but has no enforcement powers).
About NHTSA | NHTSA
About the NTSB
Sorry I had to point it out given I see journalists make this mistake a lot of times and use them interchangeably, when the actions of either have very different connotations (NHTSA can levy fines, NTSB can't and many times its recommendations are ignored by Tesla).
From the Minnesota Driver's Manual:
I realize we'll never agree but just hoping in time the regulators will make changes that make sense.
Here is a typical example with the Stop Sign probably 50 feet from the road and the stop line (highlighted in yellow) much closer to the intersection edge where everyone stops.
So what does the law imply when the stop "LINE" is past the Stop Sign right near the edge of the intersection? Or when the painted word "STOP" is on the road past the Stop Sign near the edge of the intersection? Both are common where I drive. Does FSD have always stop at the sign even though everyone ignores it and I mean everyone?
I realize we'll never agree but just hoping in time the regulators will make changes that make sense.
Here is a typical example with the Stop Sign probably 50 feet from the road and the stop line (highlighted in yellow) much closer to the intersection edge where everyone stops.
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sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
My thoughts (Cause I KNOW You Wanna Know) is FSD must drive like people, laws should reflect how people drive. If you wanna speed you just say so in your settings (I am at 115% of the limit, works great in CA). If rolling stops when it's safe are a thing where you are, you ought to be able to set that TOO. Otherwise as stated earlier you get people touching the gas pedal which is technically a disengagement of FSD and should be reported to the DMV as the program gets closer to reality.
PLEASE stop saying 'the car should NEVER be able to be set to do something illegal' as LONG as there is cruise control on this planet
PLEASE stop saying 'the car should NEVER be able to be set to do something illegal' as LONG as there is cruise control on this planet
Just came back from a drive and approached a Stop Sign set back from the intersection. First time using 10.11.2 and FSD aced it. Drove right past the Stop sign and then crept the last few feet pretty quickly, stopped then proceeded. Perfect and so much better then before. So those that say you have to stop at the Stop sign should reconsider.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Yeah - I end up doing a lot of accelerator goosing when there are people waiting on me. Most often FSD will handle it fine if you’re willing to wait. In reality, the wait is only a matter of seconds but no one is willing to wait that long. In my mind, this type of intervention (intervening just because it’s not fast enough.) is the least serious.
What are you talking about? There is no comparison between cruise control and FSD. If you want to use that logic then cars shouldn’t be able to go faster than 80MPH. With cruise control you are actively setting the speed. With FSD, the car is doing everything and you’re saying it should intentionally break the law. I still can’t figure out how/why you think Tesla should so that?
Let me give you a scenario - you approach a stop sign, roll right through, slow down to 2MPH like you usually do and then proceed. You get pulled over and you say ‘well Everyone else does it!’ To which the cop responds - ‘that doesn’t make it legal’ and gives you a ticket. Do you have any case? Absolutely not.
Now you’ve got FSD that’s programmed to do the same thing. You get pulled over and tell the cop “I didn’t do it, the car did!” to which the cop responds “I don’t care - you still broke the law and you’re in charge of the car.” You’re pissed and your lawyer friend files a class action lawsuit against Tesla for knowingly breaking the law. Now Tesla has bad publicity, legal fees and possible settlement costs. Or they can program the car to follow the law and let people press the accelerator.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I looked at that intersection on Google Maps and quite honestly it’s awful The stop sign is on the wrong side of the road, the intersection is obscured by the entrance to the cemetery, and there’s no markings on the Road, at least in street view - it looks like they may have added some later on? I thought it was a one way road but then I saw a car turning the opposite way in the photo so it must be a 2 way street. I had a hard time figuring out what you were supposed to do.
Based on everything I saw, my guess is the legal way to approach the intersection is to stop at the line that’s painted on the satellite view, then proceed, but
11.2 is much better with creeping forward. 10.2 would take forever but 11.2 figures things out and proceeds much more quickly.
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I looked at that intersection on Google Maps and quite honestly it’s awful The stop sign is on the wrong side of the road, the intersection is obscured by the entrance to the cemetery, and there’s no markings on the Road (at least in street view - it looks like they may have added some later on? I thought it was a one way road but then I saw a car turning the opposite way in the photo so it must be a 2 way street. I had a hard time figuring out what you were supposed to do.
Based on everything I saw, my guess is the legal way to approach the intersection is to stop at the line that’s painted on the satellite view, then proceed, but
11.2 is much better with creeping forward. 10.2 would take forever but 11.2 figures things out and proceeds much more quickly.
For those following along, this is the intersection:
Google Maps
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
www.google.com
At the time the googlemobile drove by, there was no stop line or "STOP" painting on the road. Just the tacked on stop sign on the left-side telephone pole.
Par for the course. This is why cops rarely enforce the little things here.
FWIW Florida law as it relates to red light cameras doesn’t require a full stop for a right on red if turn is done in careful and prudent manner. It also permits stopping over the white line which is something practically everyone does as we know.
316.0083 Mark Wandall Traffic Safety Program; administration; report.—
(1)(a) For purposes of administering this section, the department, a county, or a municipality may authorize a traffic infraction enforcement officer under s. 316.640 to issue a traffic citation for a violation of s. 316.074(1) or s. 316.075(1)(c)1. A notice of violation and a traffic citation may not be issued for failure to stop at a red light if the driver is making a right-hand turn in a careful and prudent manner at an intersection where right-hand turns are permissible. A notice of violation and a traffic citation may not be issued under this section if the driver of the vehicle came to a complete stop after crossing the stop line and before turning right if permissible at a red light, but failed to stop before crossing over the stop line or other point at which a stop is required. This paragraph does not prohibit a review of information from a traffic infraction detector by an authorized employee or agent of the department, a county, or a municipality before issuance of the traffic citation by the traffic infraction enforcement officer. This paragraph does not prohibit the department, a county, or a municipality from issuing notification as provided in paragraph (b) to the registered owner of the motor vehicle involved in the violation of s. 316.074(1) or s. 316.075(1)(c)1.
316.0083 Mark Wandall Traffic Safety Program; administration; report.—
(1)(a) For purposes of administering this section, the department, a county, or a municipality may authorize a traffic infraction enforcement officer under s. 316.640 to issue a traffic citation for a violation of s. 316.074(1) or s. 316.075(1)(c)1. A notice of violation and a traffic citation may not be issued for failure to stop at a red light if the driver is making a right-hand turn in a careful and prudent manner at an intersection where right-hand turns are permissible. A notice of violation and a traffic citation may not be issued under this section if the driver of the vehicle came to a complete stop after crossing the stop line and before turning right if permissible at a red light, but failed to stop before crossing over the stop line or other point at which a stop is required. This paragraph does not prohibit a review of information from a traffic infraction detector by an authorized employee or agent of the department, a county, or a municipality before issuance of the traffic citation by the traffic infraction enforcement officer. This paragraph does not prohibit the department, a county, or a municipality from issuing notification as provided in paragraph (b) to the registered owner of the motor vehicle involved in the violation of s. 316.074(1) or s. 316.075(1)(c)1.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I can see why - it would be pretty easy for a driver to argue that the intersection wasn’t clearly marked and get A ticket dismissed.For those following along, this is the intersection:
Google Maps
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
At the time the googlemobile drove by, there was no stop line or "STOP" painting on the road. Just the tacked on stop sign on the left-side telephone pole.
Par for the course. This is why cops rarely enforce the little things here.
Here’s a better example: - the stop sign (and line) are right before the sidewalk. The proper/legal way is to stop at the stop sign, then creep forwared enough to ensure the coast is clear before making your turn and proceeding. In reality, most people make sure no one is crossing from the sidewalk and come to (almost) a complete stop before proceeding. Just like a student driver, I’d expect Tesla to follow the legal method.
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