FSD Beta Button in the UK?

[GeorgeSymonds]

Autopilot (and Enhanced Autopilot) are completely different to the full self driving software. It's like comparing MS-DOS and Windows 10.

You might need a background in machine learning to appreciate just how far ahead of the competition Tesla is with their FSD software. They are years ahead of their nearest competition at the moment and that gap will increase as Dojo comes online and more Tesla vehicles take to the road for data gathering.

I have one which is why I make my point about visualisation. Tesla are not years ahead if the competition - Tesla don’t yet have any formal level 3 or above miles recorded anywhere. The competition do for one. Musk is still building the computer he thinks he needs to train the models. AI day was talk of aligning images etc.

The sw we currently run might be different to the sw in the nearest beta trials in the US (it had better be given how far away we are from FSD here) but be under no illusion that the only differences between AP, EAP and FSD is feature enabling on a given code base.

 

[Fursty Ferret]

I have one which is why I make my point about visualisation. Tesla are not years ahead if the competition - Tesla don’t yet have any formal level 3 or above miles recorded anywhere. The competition do for one. Musk is still building the computer he thinks he needs to train the models. AI day was talk of aligning images etc.

The sw we currently run might be different to the sw in the nearest beta trials in the US (it had better be given how far away we are from FSD here) but be under no illusion that the only differences between AP, EAP and FSD is feature enabling on a given code base.

Autopilot in the future will be a subset of FSD because why maintain two code-bases? But your last statement is categorically wrong.

As for the visualisation... well, it's a point cloud and a trivial job to represent it in three dimensions on a screen. I imagine the people actually beta testing it were unhappy about proceeding in marginal situations where they were unsure what the car was seeing or it's immediate plan.

 

[rotor2k]

Perfect recent example of how AI/FSD is never going to be reliable until there are dedicated FSD roadways: the A9 between Perth and Inverness has this "trial" (that has been running for 4 years I think) to give HGVs a 50mph speed limit instead of 40 (on the single-carriage sections). Cars can drive at 60mph, so 50 for HGVs is a lot better than 40 (from the point of view of a frustrated car driver stuck behind a big lorry). Sadly, my Model 3 picked these up EVERY SINGLE TIME, and refused to let me override back to 60, so for (what felt like 100) miles I was unable to use AP because it wouldn't go above 53mph. It seems that visual recognition of speed signs is considered BIBLE and overriding is just not possible.

Now, I, a functioning human being, was unsure what these signs meant, so initially was driving at 50, just to be sure. Eventually I figured out (from all the other cars doing 60+) that this did not apply to me. At the time my best interpretation of that sign was "this road is scary for HGVs, so let's all drive at 50 just to be safe". So how the heck is a general purpose AI EVER going to be able to interpret something as vague and arbitrary as this? I'd say these specific signs are unique in the world so the developers in California will have never encountered them in their lives.

In the case of "Speed Limit is 20 if the lights are flashing" -- what idiot committee designed these? Just make a 20 sign that illuminates when you want the limit to be 20! A giant 20 sign with a little asterisk that says "just joking, only sometimes" will cause every single car with speed limit recognition to immediately slam on the brakes.

 

[jefoth]

Perfect recent example of how AI/FSD is never going to be reliable until there are dedicated FSD roadways: the A9 between Perth and Inverness has this "trial" (that has been running for 4 years I think) to give HGVs a 50mph speed limit instead of 40 (on the single-carriage sections). Cars can drive at 60mph, so 50 for HGVs is a lot better than 40 (from the point of view of a frustrated car driver stuck behind a big lorry). Sadly, my Model 3 picked these up EVERY SINGLE TIME, and refused to let me override back to 60, so for (what felt like 100) miles I was unable to use AP because it wouldn't go above 53mph. It seems that visual recognition of speed signs is considered BIBLE and overriding is just not possible.

Now, I, a functioning human being, was unsure what these signs meant, so initially was driving at 50, just to be sure. Eventually I figured out (from all the other cars doing 60+) that this did not apply to me. At the time my best interpretation of that sign was "this road is scary for HGVs, so let's all drive at 50 just to be safe". So how the heck is a general purpose AI EVER going to be able to interpret something as vague and arbitrary as this? I'd say these specific signs are unique in the world so the developers in California will have never encountered them in their lives.

In the case of "Speed Limit is 20 if the lights are flashing" -- what idiot committee designed these? Just make a 20 sign that illuminates when you want the limit to be 20! A giant 20 sign with a little asterisk that says "just joking, only sometimes" will cause every single car with speed limit recognition to immediately slam on the brakes.

View attachment 708481

We only have the limited version of FSD. In the US version this sign is easily read and interpreted. Eventually we’ll get the same capability here.

 

[rotor2k]

We only have the limited version of FSD. In the US version this sign is easily read and interpreted. Eventually we’ll get the same capability here.

It will only be easily read and interpreted if the developers in California go for a drive in Scotland -- highly unlikely!! And my point is, we are beholden to what boils down to some "standards" that are enforced consistently, and that is never quite going to be the case.

 

[Mr H]

Nothing vague about that sign. It's obvious that it's referring to any vehicle 7.5t and above is restricted to 50mph, they probably don't have those in the U.S though.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Autopilot in the future will be a subset of FSD because why maintain two code-bases? But your last statement is categorically wrong.

Are you saying those with the FSD option in the U.K. today have different code to those with just AP? Not a chance. Not now, not in the future. We will always be running one version with features enabled for different unless we’re in the VERY limited release a few hundred in the US are on.

And ‘point cloud’ - they’ve just joined the dots, improved the render and people fall for it. Tesla even call it ‘visualisation’

 

[NewbieT]

AI Day was interesting viewing. Very clear the intention is to ‘solve’ the USA FSD before porting/retraining for different countries/roads/rules. So I very much doubt we’ll get a UK FSD Beta button anytime soon. Progress is impressive but the UK might be a while!!

I do wonder how old our Highways stack is (in AI development terms) and how often it really gets updated.

 

[MrBadger]

Are you saying those with the FSD option in the U.K. today have different code to those with just AP? Not a chance. Not now, not in the future. We will always be running one version with features enabled for different unless we’re in the VERY limited release a few hundred in the US are on.

FSD City Streets beta is however a completely different module and vision stack - so at present, general release AP, EAP and FSD do not yet benefit from that more advanced vision object detection, perception, planning side of things which is the reason why any comparison of FSD City Streets beta and what we have is moot - and indeed City Streets and Highways (or if FSD City Streets beta is disabled) for those with FSD City Streets beta - the latter have exactly what we have pretty much..

Musk did promise that the FSD City Streets vision stack (not the same as visualisation) would make it to highways (aka what everyone here think of as AP/autosteer and/or FSD) in FSD v10 beta, but it didn't (and tbh is more like a FSD v9.3) and we live in hope for it in FSD 10.1 although I'm not holding my breadth. When that happens, hopefully it will quickly go on general release and we all get to benefit from some of the underlying improvements from the current FSD City Streets beta, albeit without City Streets enabled - which may well mean that path planning from City Streets will not yet appear on general release and also begs the question, what will happen to the existing path planning that is used in highways (I have always believed that path planning is a by product and not by design in autosteer) and specifically NoA - lane changes, intersections and transitions from NoA back to autosteer?

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

FSD City Streets beta is however a completely different module and vision stack - so at present, general release AP, EAP and FSD do not yet benefit from that more advanced vision object detection, perception, planning side of things which is the reason why any comparison of FSD City Streets beta and what we have is moot - and indeed City Streets and Highways (or if FSD City Streets beta is disabled) for those with FSD City Streets beta - the latter have exactly what we have pretty much..

Musk did promise that the FSD City Streets vision stack (not the same as visualisation) would make it to highways (aka what everyone here think of as AP/autosteer and/or FSD) in FSD v10 beta, but it didn't (and tbh is more like a FSD v9.3) and we live in hope for it in FSD 10.1 although I'm not holding my breadth. When that happens, hopefully it will quickly go on general release and we all get to benefit from some of the underlying improvements from the current FSD City Streets beta, albeit without City Streets enabled - which may well mean that path planning from City Streets will not yet appear on general release and also begs the question, what will happen to the existing path planning that is used in highways (I have always believed that path planning is a by product and not by design in autosteer) and specifically NoA - lane changes, intersections and transitions from NoA back to autosteer?

What you’re referring to is the beta beta on limited release. Musk has said he wants to combine the models for city streets and general autopilot, but that’s combining different software models that are used depending on the road you’re on, that’s not different software in the car (ie if you have city streets, you still have the model for faster /highway roads and vice versa). We don’t have city streets, we only have highways, but when they combined the software we will be capable of doing either, whether they have trained it sufficiently for U.K. roads to enable it is a different matter. What we will never have is a model that is only for AP and a completely different model for FSD other than the current transient nature of different models in different cars because of different countries and different beta programmes. The software we have in the U.K. is the same software irrespective of AP, EAP and FSD options being purchased, the only difference is the enablement of features. Some claim the actual models being run are different.

 

[gangzoom]

It will only be easily read and interpreted if the developers in California go for a drive in Scotland -- highly unlikely!!

But that is exact reason why Teslas approach to Autonomy has so much more potential than Waymo.

The system Tesla is developing is using data gathered from cars on the road, like yours or mine. It doesn't need anyone from California to come and drive in your home town with a Lidar equipped mapping vehicle.

 

[NewbieT]

But it does need someone in California to understand the signs that feed rules into the planning system. Easy fix if Tesla can be bothered. How many other signs get mis-read here- we don’t know yet!

 

[gangzoom]

But it does need someone in California to understand the signs that feed rules into the planning system. Easy fix if Tesla can be bothered. How many other signs get mis-read here- we don’t know yet!

As pointed out I don't think that sign is actually hard to understand? After unless the laws have changed any one with an US driving licence can drive in the UK without needing another test to check if they understand UK road signs?

 

[NewbieT]

As pointed out I don't think that sign is actually hard to understand? After unless the laws have changed any one with an US driving licence can drive in the UK without needing another test to check if they understand UK road signs?

I don’t think the sign is hard to understand. I also didn’t suggest Tesla engineers need to drive in Scotland. Sign meanings are not always self explanatory and Tesla will likely at some point need some country specific insight in the process (I’m sure they do have a copy of the Highway Code already).

There are a few steps in Tesla fixing this and only one involves a person making a decision on what the sign means. I suspect Tesla haven’t got to that step yet.

The sign has to be identified as an exception. It has to have time scheduled for some labelling/engineer time. The corresponding rules/parameters have to be programmed, simulated, compiled, piloted, rolled-out.

 

[teaston]

Perfect recent example of how AI/FSD is never going to be reliable until there are dedicated FSD roadways: the A9 between Perth and Inverness has this "trial" (that has been running for 4 years I think) to give HGVs a 50mph speed limit instead of 40 (on the single-carriage sections). Cars can drive at 60mph, so 50 for HGVs is a lot better than 40 (from the point of view of a frustrated car driver stuck behind a big lorry). Sadly, my Model 3 picked these up EVERY SINGLE TIME, and refused to let me override back to 60, so for (what felt like 100) miles I was unable to use AP because it wouldn't go above 53mph. It seems that visual recognition of speed signs is considered BIBLE and overriding is just not possible.

Now, I, a functioning human being, was unsure what these signs meant, so initially was driving at 50, just to be sure. Eventually I figured out (from all the other cars doing 60+) that this did not apply to me. At the time my best interpretation of that sign was "this road is scary for HGVs, so let's all drive at 50 just to be safe". So how the heck is a general purpose AI EVER going to be able to interpret something as vague and arbitrary as this? I'd say these specific signs are unique in the world so the developers in California will have never encountered them in their lives.

In the case of "Speed Limit is 20 if the lights are flashing" -- what idiot committee designed these? Just make a 20 sign that illuminates when you want the limit to be 20! A giant 20 sign with a little asterisk that says "just joking, only sometimes" will cause every single car with speed limit recognition to immediately slam on the brakes.

View attachment 708481

That does appear to be the only sign of its type in the whole UK though. Nevertheless, Tesla just need to add it to the database, and then the car will recognise it.

 

[Dilly]

watching the beta videos, I can’t help thinking that there is a need for a pair of extra cameras on the front wings.
as the car creeps out of a turning into traffic, in some situations the necessary field of view isn’t always covered until the car is too far out.
hope I’m wrong!

 

[JupiterMan]

watching the beta videos, I can’t help thinking that there is a need for a pair of extra cameras on the front wings.
as the car creeps out of a turning into traffic, in some situations the necessary field of view isn’t always covered until the car is too far out.
hope I’m wrong!

this is an interesting potential issue. Youtuber Chuck Cook ( @Chazman) has very good videos on an unprotected blinded left turn across three lanes of fast traffic. He has repeated that test on all versions of FSDBeta and so far it hasn't done great for various reasons,

Chuck has put go-pro cameras in different positions to simulate the B pillar camera and alternative positions to test the line of sight and a more front bias camera would certainly give a better view. he hasn't tested Beta10 yet - he should be testing again from Thursday - will be interesting to see how it does.

In meantime Elon has said the next version 10.1 will include the ability to reverse (first time for the city streets Beta) so it will be able to duck back out of the road if it sees a problem - this should help a little with such difficult junctions.

 

[gangzoom]

watching the beta videos, I can’t help thinking that there is a need for a pair of extra cameras on the front wings.
as the car creeps out of a turning into traffic, in some situations the necessary field of view isn’t always covered until the car is too far out.
hope I’m wrong!

The angles covered by the B pillar cameras are pretty good - essentially the same as looking left and right. I think the complexity is actually how do you stich all these camera input together in real time, and than apply driving logic to work out when to pull out when not too.

From my very limited understanding of what Tesla is doing with FSD, the current Beta is only just starting to do the stitching up of all the camera inputs. Joining the road from my house requires lots of looking left/right/left/right, and even than occasionally I would pull out only to 'see' a car coming up behind me quite quickly, because as a human sadly I cannot look in 2 different directions at the same time and when ever I pull out there is always one side of the road I have no real time knowledge or information on.

In theory if Tesla can 'solve' this issue, there is no reason why autonomous car will be much better than humans at pulling out safely.

 

[Dilly]

The shame is that side facing ‘nose’ cameras on the front wings would have nailed the issue of creeping forward at junctions. they would have line of sight far beyond our own.

 

[goRt]

The shame is that side facing ‘nose’ cameras on the front wings would have nailed the issue of creeping forward at junctions. they would have line of sight far beyond our own.

If a retro fit is required to allow Tesla to meet its obligations, so be it - just like the free HW2 to HW3- upgrades.