FSD features to start rolling out in August...

[daniel]

How will/do FSD cars handle 4 way stops? Whichever it counts which cars stop and the order and waits? Car around here don't stop 1/2 the time and 1/4th of the time they go in the wrong order. Or you get people waving you to go when it is their turn.

Waymo is presently operating a fleet of cars that are effectively Level 4 if not Level 5, though they still have a driver in place due to regulations. So there should be information out there that answers your question.

Musk is an intelligent person. I sure hope what he said carry high degree of fact plus some optimism as part of his wishful thinking. To be fair, if the autopilot version 9 can achieve Level 4 (High automation), I will be very pleased for what Tesla has promised.

Based on Level 4 FSD, human driver still be responsible for intervention from time to time. So, it does NOT require government approval. If Must is talking about releasing it by August, it will sure be Level 4 since Level 3 is a "conditional automation and Level 5 will require Congress's approval. I suspect the autopilot version 9 is a complete rewrite of newly simplified (with deeply learning) code based on AP2.5 hardware.

Level 4 is "Eyes off the road." The car is completely self-driving under some conditions, but not all. There will be times when the car parks itself and requires the driver to wake up and take over. It will definitely require regulatory approval, but with the big automakers pushing for it, approval will follow quickly.

Level 5 is a car that does not need a driver at all, ever.

My guess is that we will get Level 4 in 5 to 10 years, and that regulatory approval will follow quickly, due to the political clout of the big automakers. My prediction: It will take longer to get from Level 4 to Level 5 than it takes to get from Level 2 (the most advanced cars today) to Level 4. That's because of the difficulty of dealing with the most marginal situations. I will be very satisfied with Level 4 because under most conditions the car will drive itself without requiring human attention. You can take a nap, and the car will stop and wake you if need be.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Level 5 is a car that does not need a driver at all, ever.

Including unsealed ‘tracks’ in a desert, forest, etc

 

[daniel]

Including unsealed ‘tracks’ in a desert, forest, etc

Not sure how or whether off-road vehicles fit into the categories.

 

[Daniel in SD]

We do not know but speculating is fun. I can easily see this differentiation such that Autopilot is not full self driving. What they're selling is autopilot is level 2, fsd is level 4. With that, why would they let autopilot users to use self driving abilities?! Pay more if you want better/more functionality.

EAP requires driver attention because it will run into things if you don't pay attention. FSD does not require driver attention. It just seems improbable that Tesla would allow EAP cars to get into avoidable accidents when the car is capable of avoiding them. Presumably they'll be using the same code base for both systems. If that's the case how will EAP decide what to run into?
One obvious way to differentiate them is that FSD will allow you to program in a destination.

 

[lapolak]

Besides more FSD / EAP features, do we have any idea what else will be included in Tesla Version 9.0?

 

[electracity]

Not sure how or whether off-road vehicles fit into the categories.

Not sure that it matters. Users buy functionality, not absolute definitions. The critical step is "eyes off the road". Every improvement past that point is incremental, including removing the licensed driver from the vehicle.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

EAP requires driver attention because it will run into things if you don't pay attention. FSD does not require driver attention. It just seems improbable that Tesla would allow EAP cars to get into avoidable accidents when the car is capable of avoiding them. Presumably they'll be using the same code base for both systems. If that's the case how will EAP decide what to run into?
One obvious way to differentiate them is that FSD will allow you to program in a destination.

I'm really hoping they fix crash into fire truck / concrete divider feature. But beyond that, EAP is still eyes on the road. Dunno, we won't know until things play out.

 

[Krazaak]

I'm really hoping they fix crash into fire truck / concrete divider feature. But beyond that, EAP is still eyes on the road. Dunno, we won't know until things play out.

I don't think there's any reason to assume that EAP will always be L2 or L3 automation. Once the vehicles are capable of L4 and L5 automation, there's no reason to require driver attention.

EAP and FSD are easily defined by a feature set. If you limit EAP to highways and other roadways without pedestrians or traffic control devices and FSD to urban or side streets, that splits the responsibilities pretty well.

Tesla may decide that EAP on the highway will always require an attention nag, but there's no way that they would deliberately cripple the capabilities so it occasionally tries to ram a fire truck to make sure you're watching.

Maybe they'll let EAP owners take a nap while the car drives 200 miles of interstate and wake you before your exit, while FSD owners get to nap from door to door. Given how easy it is to bypass the nag, I suspect there will be little incentive to keep it there for EAP, especially since FSD would have so much to offer at that point, for relatively little incremental cost.

 

[daniel]

Maybe they'll let EAP owners take a nap while the car drives 200 miles of interstate and wake you before your exit...

That would be a Level 4 car. My guess is you'll have to buy the FSD package to get a Level 4 car. They could conceivably have all the same software, but you have to pay for the FSD package before the car will allow you to take your hands off the wheel. This would not cost them any extra for R&D, would cost pennies in bandwidth to upload, and would provide the same level of safety for both trim lines, while providing revenue. ("We spent a lot of money developing this software. If you want to unlock the hands-off/eyes-closed permission you pay us for our development cost + profit.")

 

[Krazaak]

That would be a Level 4 car. My guess is you'll have to buy the FSD package to get a Level 4 car. They could conceivably have all the same software, but you have to pay for the FSD package before the car will allow you to take your hands off the wheel. This would not cost them any extra for R&D, would cost pennies in bandwidth to upload, and would provide the same level of safety for both trim lines, while providing revenue. ("We spent a lot of money developing this software. If you want to unlock the hands-off/eyes-closed permission you pay us for our development cost + profit.")

Yeah, I think it could go either way. Personally, I think there's zero chance that Tesla will run parallel code paths for EAP and FSD. EAP just requires a subset of the logic for FSD.

If Tesla opts to gate hands-free functionality behind FSD, I don't have any real grounds to complain. Unless the cost for FSD increases dramatically, I think it would be an attractive upgrade for the extra features. I suspect that people who only want/need the EAP features will probably invest in a few ounces of lead instead of buying FSD just to remove nags.

 

[DarthPierce]

Once they have comparable safety (won't hit parked firetrucks, gore points, etc.) there's a super easy way to differentiate between the EAP (L2) and FSD (L4) systems: Nag every 30 seconds vs no nagging.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

Between nags, EAP will pay ads with full sound.

 

[daniel]

... Unless the cost for FSD increases dramatically, I think it would be an attractive upgrade for the extra features. ...

Somehow, when I got my car, I didn't think they might put some features that I might want behind the FSD pay wall. At the time, EAP appealed to me because of TACC mostly, and Autosteer (which I felt wary of) secondarily. Stopping for stop signs and traffic lights (which some speculate might be behind the FSD pay wall rather than EAP) also seemed appealing when it arrives. I didn't see anything beyond that as being of much interest to me until genuine take-a-nap autonomy, which I don't believe we'll see in less than five years, and maybe ten.

But I can see now that they might tempt me to pay the $4K if they introduce features I really want. Not sure what it would take. Maybe integrating Autosteer with NAV and stop-sign/traffic-light recognition. But that means being able to get into the proper lane for turns, and it will be a long time before the car can do that as well as I can: Judging the traffic conditions for when it's necessary to change lanes, rather than slowing traffic behind you to get into the proper lane a mile before it's needed. If they introduced that, and it's shown to work well enough, I might pony up the cash.

I'll be interested to see what features come out for which trim line, and whether the people who paid for FSD get something I want badly enough.

 

[daniel]

P.S. Anything that significantly increases the safety of the car I would pay for, no questions asked. But Tesla has said that safety features will always be standard in every car.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

P.S. Anything that significantly increases the safety of the car I would pay for, no questions asked. But Tesla has said that safety features will always be standard in every car.

Those lying... They said autopilot makes them safer and I paid money's for it.

 

[kbM3]

That's why it should not be called FSD until it actually reaches full self-driving capability. Until then call it driver assist. Make it clear that the driver is responsible, until such time as the cars really are self-driving.

My fear of the bad PR is after driver responsibility is removed. When the car is literally just driving a passenger around. Elon seems to think that time is less than 2 years from now, but of course, it is very difficult to see how that could be possible.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Why are FSD features being rolled out in EAP?

Shouldn't you have purchased FSD to get FSD features?

 

[d21mike]

Why are FSD features being rolled out in EAP?

Shouldn't you have purchased FSD to get FSD features?

I would say they would not. Elon said the first FSD features will be in v9. Example: Let us say that one of them STOP SIGN Detection. Well that would only be for cars with the FSD Feature. You could not get it if you only purchased EAP. And of course ALL EAP Features are available to cars that purchased EAP+FSD. Not sure how it could be any other way.

Some feel that EAP on the FREEWAY will be different then EAP+FSD on the FREEWAY. I can not see that happening. I think EAP FREEWAY Driving will be the same as FSD FREEWAY Driving. I think where FSD really comes into play is on surface streets. Like home to work and work to home. Where as if you only have EAP it will not ON-RAMP to OFF-RAMP assuming you have a FREEWAY in your path. And of course we are talking about Navigation control instead of driver control.

 

[Knightshade]

Some feel that EAP on the FREEWAY will be different then EAP+FSD on the FREEWAY. I can not see that happening.

I mean, by definition it has to be different.

For one FSD uses 8 cameras instead of 4 per the definition of each feature from Tesla so it'll be more capable... but for another-


FSD-

"The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat"

EAP-

"Enhanced Autopilot should still be considered a driver's assistance feature with the driver responsible for remaining in control of the car at all times"



EAP requires you to remain in control of the vehicle, including keeping your hands on the wheel.

FSD explicitly requires nothing from the driver when in use.

This remains true even on freeways.

So while I agree there'll be a much broader difference in capabilities off of highways, there's still a difference (or will be) even then.

 

[TaoJones]

One wonders at what point FSD refunds will be quietly made available to any prepaid owner who wants one, in order to stave off yet another class action - especially from those who leased.

2 years from Fall 2016? 3 years from Fall 2016?

Elon merely said that v9 would *start* to provide FSD features. Maybe that means some FSD with v9.1 before year end 2018. Or Spring 2019. Remember how much better 8.1 was than 8.0.

I’d expect enhanced blind spot notification to be part of the “soon to hopefully no longer be silent E” in EAP. And to arrive with v9.0, which is to say before anything FSD. This presumes that 4 cameras and whatever the subset of sensors is for EAP will be sufficient. Can’t remember the original promises in that regard.