FSD refund attempt: Tesla rep is lying

[Az_Rael]

I want a refund too. I bought a car with 310 miles of range, now it’s 325! I didn’t ask for dashcam, sentry mode, NoA and those Artari games. They continue to shove new stuff to my car every month! I want a refund!

I would give all of those things back to Tesla and let them spend the money on getting me solid, bug-free code instead. The latest update I got made AP, a feature I did pay for, much worse with phantom braking and cancelled lane changes.

I actually get a little mad when I see they spend time on stupid things like Atari games and fart noises when I still have a long list of software bugs I deal with daily.

 

[MrMannnilow]

I would give all of those things back to Tesla and let them spend the money on getting me solid, bug-free code instead. The latest update I got made AP, a feature I did pay for, much worse with phantom braking and cancelled lane changes.

I actually get a little mad when I see they spend time on stupid things like Atari games and fart noises when I still have a long list of software bugs I deal with daily.

100% spot on. Bluetooth sucks in my car.

 

[Darscot]

I actually get a little mad when I see they spend time on stupid things like Atari games and fart noises when I still have a long list of software bugs I deal with daily.

As a software engineer I can comment that this type of thing will make the team more productive. You can't just grind a team all the time, people will just slowly lose productivity. Just like any job you need to take breaks. Anyone that has spent a significant amount of time in any major tech shop learns that all those little perks are really for the benefit of the company. Its just carrot instead of stick but in the end its all just so you as a donkey pull that wagon faster.

 

[remlemasi]

I can’t believe there are still people who don’t understand that what Tesla did was not just wrong, but outright misleading.

If people who bought FSD in 2018 actually got the product, and the price went down, it wouldn’t be nearly as bad. At least we would have had a product to show for our overpayment of $3000.

But Tesla also told people that if you didn’t lock in the price early, the price would go up— the exact opposite of what has happened!! What they told us was obviously a complete lie and that’s what is so despicable. That’s what so many of us are outraged about. Consolation Early Access Program offers which are yet to go out aren’t worth the $4000 price swing.

Elon admited that what they did was a mistake, but if they were really serious about that, they would not have extended the price cuts (the too many orders excuse is a lie— they just need $ for Q1). Also, if people were really supposed to accept a locked in FSD price, people who bought FSD in early 2019 should not have gotten offers of a refund.

Those who were not screwed over by these lies frankly need to shut up. Especially those people who bought FSD now and are benefiting financially from those of us who were bigger supporters of Tesla in 2018, their time of need. You can be happy that you’ve gotten a discount off the backs/ wallets of others, but don’t tell those of us who you’re benefiting from to ‘stop whining ‘ or ‘just move on’. We have every right to remain outraged.

Tesla has a bad habit of screwing over their existing customers. With the whole of my experience (messes in ordering, delivery and service), I am no longer a fan-boy and am not promoting my car to others, nor am I buying the 2nd Tesla we were thinking about doing earlier.

They don’t even have to spend $ or refund us to make things right. They can do things that cost them absolutely nothing like partially uncork my AWD. Yet they do nothing. They can’t even send out invitations for the early access program they promised. Tesla needs to get its act together fast.

Wholeheartedly agree.

--Tesla specifically tells us the price will go up so buy now. Will get MUCH more expensive in the future.
--In July 2018, Tesla says first FSD features will come out in August 2018.
--Us fools purchase FSD at $3k based on the two statements above.
--They don't come out with any features, not even one
--They drop the price rather than raise it and
--This is deceptive marketing and unacceptable.
--No other way to look at it.

They could have easily classified Navigate on Autopilot as FSD-only and not under EAP and avoided this entire debacle.

If they truly changed their mind (which they are allowed to) or ran into issues releasing features in August 2018 (which is understandable by just about anyone), they should just own up to it and offer much more than just entry into the "Early Access Program." Refunds would be ideal.

Fanboys who continue to defend Tesla on this particular topic, please read the bullet points above over and over until you get it. Everything else (P3D- getting screwed, price drops, price drops, price drops, price hikes...) are all within the normal course of a company doing business. Probably not the smartest thing, pissing customers off along the way, but all normal. This FSD fiasco is a whole different level, and as I stated, deceptive marketing and unacceptable. No other way to look at it. Sorry, not sorry.

That being said, I still believe in the company because their products are the absolute best in the industry and nothing even comes close. In my opinion, you'd be a fool to consider any other car in the same general category.

As such, I still recommend them to everyone I know. It's just really disappointing they they operate this way.

 

[electronblue]

I want a refund too. I bought a car with 310 miles of range, now it’s 325! I didn’t ask for dashcam, sentry mode, NoA and those Artari games. They continue to shove new stuff to my car every month! I want a refund!

Keep rubbing it on those pesky FSD+EAP buyers from October 2016 for whom Tesla promised the most and who have not received Dashcam, Sentry Mode or even the latest Atari game for their AP2/MCU1 cars... instead they got two years of ”fun” with EAP and nothing of the promised FSD features (by summer 2017), coast-to-coast (end of 2017) or Tesla Network details (in 2017). Oh, also they paid twice as much as someone who just upgraded to FSD recently...

Your perspective might change?

 

[Kant.Ing]

FSD is so 2016. Wake up!

 

[DanH]

I would give all of those things back to Tesla and let them spend the money on getting me solid, bug-free code instead. The latest update I got made AP, a feature I did pay for, much worse with phantom braking and cancelled lane changes.

I actually get a little mad when I see they spend time on stupid things like Atari games and fart noises when I still have a long list of software bugs I deal with daily.

I'm pretty sure a different team (non AP) work on these fun stuff. Likely, it's a smaller team. I wouldn't want these developers to work on AP as it's not their specialty.

The AP team could slow down and fix the issues that you mentioned, but they're at a race with other competitors to be the first to offer full self driving.

The question is, do we want a 100% bug free software which is being released once a year?
I'm confident most Tesla owners would rather be a beta tester.
One solution is to allow users to download and install update when they choose to.

 

[DanH]

Keep rubbing it on those pesky FSD+EAP buyers from October 2016 for whom Tesla promised the most and who have not received Dashcam, Sentry Mode or even the latest Atari game for their AP2/MCU1 cars... instead they got two years of ”fun” with EAP and nothing of the promised FSD features (by summer 2017), coast-to-coast (end of 2017) or Tesla Network details (in 2017). Oh, also they paid twice as much as someone who just upgraded to FSD recently...

Your perspective might change?

I'm pretty sure I would if I don't get my HW3.

 

[run-the-joules]

I'm pretty sure a different team (non AP) work on these fun stuff. Likely, it's a smaller team. I wouldn't want these developers to work on AP as it's not their specialty.

The AP team could slow down and fix the issues that you mentioned, but they're at a race with other competitors to be the first to offer full self driving.

The question is, do we want a 100% bug free software which is being released once a year?
I'm confident most Tesla owners would rather be a beta tester.
One solution is to allow users to download and install update when they choose to.

Just to chime in briefly since it seems timely:

The phantom braking issue in 2019.5.4, 2019.5.15, and 2019.7.11 that I've had is *infuriating*. The car is very frequently displaying (on the MCU) encroachment into my lane by other vehicles that is not only not happening, but isn't even particularly close to doing so, and the car reacts accordingly (including highlighting [or lowlighting since it's darker during the daytime] the threat car). This occurs most frequently when there's a significant speed difference between my lane and the adjacent lane. I don't have the ability to correlate MCU lane and object display with what autopilot is detecting and reacting to (@verygreen might be able to speak to this?), but what my eyes see and what the MCU shows are quite dissimilar, so it's reasonable to guess AP has a similar sight picture to what the MCU is showing.

When I'm in the HOV lane doing 45-55 and the adjacent lane is doing 15, and my car suddenly sets off the jesus beeps and drops the anchors because it thinks someone is merging into me (but isn't), it very much harshes the mellow, and the mellow of Autopilot is why I bought the car.

Now, that having been said? Am I excited to theoretically get into this early access program? Yes, because I am a software engineer and know how to give bug reports and actionable feedback, and I'm hoping I can actually help solve these problems if I have a framework for delivering useful feedback (not these BS verbal bug reports). In practice, though, I'm increasingly starting to believe that the EAP (newest definition!) will not be a panacea, as apparently the updates in the program are still very sporadically deployed to members via an opaque selection process just like we animals in the general public, and I have yet to hear anyone give any sort of information that gives me high expectations about delivering issue reports and feedback.

 

[Jeffers0n]

They could have easily classified Navigate on Autopilot as FSD-only and not under EAP and avoided this entire debacle..

I agree with you, there are so many ways they could have avoided all this. It makes me think some really not bright people are making these decisions. It certainly doesn't boost my confidence in the company.

 

[N5329K]

Anyone buying in 2016/17 could reasonably expect them to stand by those claims.

Anyone who expected such a thing might want to review the company's record of delivering on EM’s off-the-cuff promises on time.
Robin

 

[mobilesuit818]

Just proves that if you make/sell cars in general, that you will not be able to make everyone happy.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Just to chime in briefly since it seems timely:

The phantom braking issue in 2019.5.4, 2019.5.15, and 2019.7.11 that I've had is *infuriating*. The car is very frequently displaying (on the MCU) encroachment into my lane by other vehicles that is not only not happening, but isn't even particularly close to doing so, and the car reacts accordingly (including highlighting [or lowlighting since it's darker during the daytime] the threat car). This occurs most frequently when there's a significant speed difference between my lane and the adjacent lane. I don't have the ability to correlate MCU lane and object display with what autopilot is detecting and reacting to (@verygreen might be able to speak to this?), but what my eyes see and what the MCU shows are quite dissimilar, so it's reasonable to guess AP has a similar sight picture to what the MCU is showing.

When I'm in the HOV lane doing 45-55 and the adjacent lane is doing 15, and my car suddenly sets off the jesus beeps and drops the anchors because it thinks someone is merging into me (but isn't), it very much harshes the mellow, and the mellow of Autopilot is why I bought the car.

Now, that having been said? Am I excited to theoretically get into this early access program? Yes, because I am a software engineer and know how to give bug reports and actionable feedback, and I'm hoping I can actually help solve these problems if I have a framework for delivering useful feedback (not these BS verbal bug reports). In practice, though, I'm increasingly starting to believe that the EAP (newest definition!) will not be a panacea, as apparently the updates in the program are still very sporadically deployed to members via an opaque selection process just like we animals in the general public, and I have yet to hear anyone give any sort of information that gives me high expectations about delivering issue reports and feedback.

What bugs me is you shouldn't have to be in the EAP program to report bugs.

They really should just switch to some kind of bug tracking SW where all owners had access to post bugs. Then over time contributors would have points based on bugs they've issued, and on comments to other bugs either by confirming them as a bug or notifying the submitter that it wasn't really a bug.

Over time it will be easy for people at Tesla to get a good feeling for what customers are seeing. It would also help customers get some kind of feedback as to what's going on.

Like I have a pretty good idea of WHY NoA sucks.

I could email Tesla, but it would just fall on deaf ears. Or it would be months later that they'd reply and it would no longer be applicable.

More than anything else Tesla is a SW company so they need to start treating it as SW.

 

[run-the-joules]

What bugs me is you shouldn't have to be in the EAP program to report bugs.

They really should just switch to some kind of bug tracking SW where all owners had access to post bugs. Then over time contributors would have points based on bugs they've issues, and on comments to other bugs either confirming them as a bugs or notifying the submitter that it wasn't really a bug.

Over time it will be easy for people at Tesla to get a good feeling for what customers are seeing. It would also help customers get some kind of feedback as to what's going on.

Like I have a pretty good idea of WHY NoA sucks.

I could email Tesla, but it would just fall on deaf ears. Or it would be months later that they'd reply and it would no longer be applicable.

More than anything else Tesla is a SW company so they need to start treating it as SW.

Completely agree. It's immensely frustrating.

 

[banned-66611]

Anyone who expected such a thing might want to review the company's record of delivering on EM’s off-the-cuff promises on time.
Robin

Aka the "we suck, everyone knows that!" defense.

 

[N5329K]

Aka the "we suck, everyone knows that!" defense.

Yes, pretty much that. The bar is low so they should have no trouble making improvements.
Robin

 

[UngaBunga1989]

Yes, pretty much that. The bar is low so they should have no trouble making improvements.
Robin

And still, what we have in our cars currently blows away anything else I am aware of. If it’s so darn easy to deliver the full promise FSD, spend less time complaining here and go ask Elon for a job. Or start you own Company and sell him all of your brilliance. In the meantime you are diminishing your enjoymentof what is presently one of the finest cars abailable at any price. Your call to do so, but wow, what a wasted moment.

 

[M109Rider]

My problem is with people that really don’t know what they’re talking about but state their opinion as fact. To say these people have no argument ‘end of story’ is just wrong. Plainly wrong.

Check the Ontario EVIP cancelation thread. When ford cancelled the rebates and excluded Tesla from the wind down, I immediately said Tesla should sue the government. ‘That’ll never work, government can do what they want etc’. I was right but those that substitute hot air with knowledge did try to say I was wrong. Same thing here. Lay person argument and legal ones aren’t close to the same thing.

So to answer your question, on my part anyway, it’s not an attack. It’s sympathy.

I’m so glad your chimmed I’m on this thread.
Everyone here who has commented in this thread who isn’t a highly educated contractual expert like yourself, should really keep their opinions to themselves. Why; well frankly because you have arrived, you have already determined and stated the facts, and outcome. There is clearly no room for any other outcome.
I’m also glad you have expressed your sympathy for those here that aren’t as educated and all knowing like yourself.
Your sympathy for the uneducated is admirable.

 

[Darthbenji]

I’m so glad your chimmed I’m on this thread.
Everyone here who has commented in this thread who isn’t a highly educated contractual expert like yourself, should really keep their opinions to themselves. Why; well frankly because you have arrived, you have already determined and stated the facts, and outcome. There is clearly no room for any other outcome.
I’m also glad you have expressed your sympathy for those here that aren’t as educated and all knowing like yourself.
Your sympathy for the uneducated is admirable.

You’re welcome. Any time.

 

[Az_Rael]

The AP team could slow down and fix the issues that you mentioned, but they're at a race with other competitors to be the first to offer full self driving.

The question is, do we want a 100% bug free software which is being released once a year?
I'm confident most Tesla owners would rather be a beta tester.
One solution is to allow users to download and install update when they choose to.

It isn’t just the AP team that has issues to fix, though. There are issues with the UI, Bluetooth, streaming, the dang back up camera etc. They are getting behind the competition on the UI front. Every car I rent nowadays has better phone/music integration than Tesla does. Things like text integration, playlist support, apps (waze, Spotify, XM), etc. They probably should have outsourced that.

The software doesn’t have to be 100% bug free. But they need a much better % than they have today. I would gladly get fewer updates if they were QC’d a little better before realease.