FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[tivoboy]

.5 OG. 5/2018 M3 RWD LR. 30K MILES. Nor cal. Installed last night.

Arghh..Honestly, why do we EVEN try.. I can see that there IS an improvement in smoothness..in SOME ways it IS a bit more like a human driver.. but in many other ways its WORSE than 11.3 or whatever it was before and there have been some new introductions of deficiency or regression to once again make it near unusable end to end other than for testing purposes.

It’s once again, 1 step forward two back for me at least.. I was going to call it two steps forward two steps back, but I guess based on expectations, I need to indicate backwards at least from a usability, SAFETY and any directional move toward readiness. I don’t really even have the motivation to write it all up at the moment, I’m sort of annoyed.

If the 1.1 mile 3rd test drive I did from downtown to home were any example for a STUDENT DRIVER test, the proctor would have failed them THREE times.. should that be some sort of way to judge FSDb at this point… over under vs. a student driver? I know a few YEARS ago, I said it was more like a student driver OR an inebriated driver more than anything else. We REALLY have to get past at least that minimum bar to start to believe that this is achievable.

 

[KLam]

I'm curious about this, as I've understood the opposite. Red light and speed cameras were common many years ago, but have been removed due to constitutional challenges - specifically the right to face your accuser. Can't haul a camera into court.

I think its more on deterrent and safety. Just imagine you piled up with speeding tickets.

 

[Dewg]

I think its more on deterrent and safety. Just imagine you piled up with speeding tickets.

Oh, put the fake cameras up - I'm all for that if it gets people to slow down. But if you get a ticket - just go to court and challenge - it'll get tossed out.

 

[TK211X]

Oh, put the fake cameras up - I'm all for that if it gets people to slow down. But if you get a ticket - just go to court and challenge - it'll get tossed out.

Unexpected facts. Always get a lawyer to represent you for citations otherwise your insurance goes up. Never consent to FSTs. You always have a 5th amendment right to not talk to police at any point in time so long and you vocalize the intent to use those rights.

This has saved me so much pain and money.

I’m not a lawyer.

 

[JB47394]

Honestly, why do we EVEN try.. I can see that there IS an improvement in smoothness..in SOME ways it IS a bit more like a human driver.. but in many other ways its WORSE than 11.3 or whatever it was before and there have been some new introductions of deficiency or regression to once again make it near unusable end to end other than for testing purposes.

My best summary of what happened is that V12 has greatly improved the creative parts of driving, but it doesn't satisfy the mechanistic parts. V11 was the reverse. Given their origins, that would certainly make sense.

 

[Supcom]

I have only tested so far with Auto Max enabled, but I am curious about turning it off. If there is no control code anymore, and it's camera-in and control-out, how can you override the speed limit and make it move faster? The only way I can think is to override the speed limit the car sees and insert that data BEFORE it hits the NN, so the NN thinks the speed limit is 50 instead of 45, and outputs the controls accordingly.

The only way I have found to get 12.3 to drive faster is to use the accelerator. Once you speed it up, it seems to stick for a while. But dialing the right scroll wheel up has had no effect. As I've stated, I think that the max speed in V12 is just an absolute maximum. I also think that it's set to 85 mph by default. But, the car doesn't go 85 because the NNs say to drive at a slower speed for city streets. At one point, I switched from auto speed to manual and the max speed displayed was 85 mph. I suspect that was the value that auto speed had when I switched it. It was certainly far higher than the +8% I had configured for speed offset.

On one drive, there was a really slow car in the lane to my left. FSD decided to slow down to the speed of that car and paced with it for a short bit before deciding to speed up slightly and overtake it. It was like FSD figured that the other driver knew a good reason to drive slowly, so FSD would do so as well until it figured out what was going on.

The whole auto speed thing is really opaque to me and I'd like Tesla to provide some guidance. Fortunately, it generally doesn't try to drive at insanely fast speeds. But, I do wish it would drive a bit faster. I may try using the accelerator more often when its too slow. Hopefully, Tesla will get feedback from that.

 

[tivoboy]

The only way I have found to get 12.3 to drive faster is to use the accelerator. Once you speed it up, it seems to stick for a while. But dialing the right scroll wheel up has had no effect. As I've stated, I think that the max speed in V12 is just an absolute maximum. I also think that it's set to 85 mph by default. But, the car doesn't go 85 because the NNs say to drive at a slower speed for city streets. At one point, I switched from auto speed to manual and the max speed displayed was 85 mph. I suspect that was the value that auto speed had when I switched it. It was certainly far higher than the +8% I had configured for speed offset.

On one drive, there was a really slow car in the lane to my left. FSD decided to slow down to the speed of that car and paced with it for a short bit before deciding to speed up slightly and overtake it. It was like FSD figured that the other driver knew a good reason to drive slowly, so FSD would do so as well until it figured out what was going on.

The whole auto speed thing is really opaque to me and I'd like Tesla to provide some guidance. Fortunately, it generally doesn't try to drive at insanely fast speeds. But, I do wish it would drive a bit faster. I may try using the accelerator more often when its too slow. Hopefully, Tesla will get feedback from that.

I found if i started driving and was at a speed ABOVE posted when I engaged FSDb, it would sort of stick ABOVE speed… but if i started FSD prior to that, the car would tend about 10-15% BELOW posted speeds which was totally unacceptable. and of course, one cannot scroll wheel it up, no matter how many cars are piling up behind and how FAST the car in front is pulling away.

 

[Supcom]

I found if i started driving and was at a speed ABOVE posted when I engaged FSDb, it would sort of stick ABOVE speed… but if i started FSD prior to that, the car would tend about 10-15% BELOW posted speeds which was totally unacceptable. and of course, one cannot scroll wheel it up, no matter how many cars are piling up behind and how FAST the car in front is pulling away.

I have had 12.3 drive above the speed limit. But, more often it is several mph below. As much as I'd like to have zero-intervention drives, I see frequent use of the accelerator is going to be required.

I would like to see the auto select max speed on the display. I'm not a fan of the car hiding that from me.

 

[JHCCAZ]

.....and Average means FSD is better athan the top 90% of drivers.

In the next release, maybe that setting will be "Above Average".

 

[Oil Freedom]

Got the update overnight. Interestingly, FSDb wasn't available yesterday. I had to calibrate the cameras, re-accept terms, and reset the associated the options.

Initial observations from today's test driving:

• @AlanSubie4Life, that right turn out of the former Sorrento Valley post office business park onto Vista Sorrento Parkway is much improved. It was downright reasonable and appropriately cautious with this version! No more wanting to blindly blast out into traffic! I guess I won't have to wear my $hi11in' pants anymore for that turn.
• U-turns are a welcome addition! It completed most OK, although slowly. Even though, as noted by someone else, it showed a message indicating it would assistance, it completed the turns by itself. However in one case, I had to take over to speed things up due to oncoming traffic.
• It handled most cul-de-sacs well by completing a u-turn and continuing on toward its destination. In one case, a parked car didn't allow enough room for the turn to be completed without a 3-point turn. The car stopped after some wheel jerking, but no message. It's not able to reverse in this scenario -- yet.
• The auto speed setting results in driving that's too slow -- particularly on residential streets with zero traffic. Gentle goosing of the power pedal seems to increase the speed to a higher range.
• Speed bumps are handled better, but not rendered on the screen -- which is fine with me.
• Still ignores "No Turn on Red" signs.
• Usually maintains centered position in lane, but sometimes is too slow to move between lanes or stays way too far to the right within the lane. Sometimes drives outside the right lane marker for no reason.
• Parking lot driving is much improved. Smoother and less indecision and resulting wheel jerk.
• I started FSDb on the top level of a parking deck (mostly empty) with a destination set that was a mile away. This test seemed to confuse it; maybe it thought it was on a lower level or in an open regular parking lot. It would just drive in a circle through that level and then park in a spot -- apparently giving up. The parking was good, and a nice way for it give up. However, there was no message.
• Immediately after turning into right into a strip mall parking lot, the car issued the red hands of death forcing me to take over. It displayed an error message that was something like "Internal Autopilot Error". The prior version never had a problem with this particular turn.
• At stop signs it seems to fully stop and then have a false start (moves but stops again) more often than the prior version.
• Improved approach to red lights with earlier slowing.

As always, two steps forward and one step backward!

 

[Pdubs]

How do I know my car is a he or a she?

Cars are always female. h
Her name is Lucille. Lucille is smooth and fast, like my horses and my women.

 

[aronth5]

The only way I have found to get 12.3 to drive faster is to use the accelerator. Once you speed it up, it seems to stick for a while. But dialing the right scroll wheel up has had no effect. As I've stated, I think that the max speed in V12 is just an absolute maximum. I also think that it's set to 85 mph by default. But, the car doesn't go 85 because the NNs say to drive at a slower speed for city streets. At one point, I switched from auto speed to manual and the max speed displayed was 85 mph. I suspect that was the value that auto speed had when I switched it. It was certainly far higher than the +8% I had configured for speed offset.

On one drive, there was a really slow car in the lane to my left. FSD decided to slow down to the speed of that car and paced with it for a short bit before deciding to speed up slightly and overtake it. It was like FSD figured that the other driver knew a good reason to drive slowly, so FSD would do so as well until it figured out what was going on.

The whole auto speed thing is really opaque to me and I'd like Tesla to provide some guidance. Fortunately, it generally doesn't try to drive at insanely fast speeds. But, I do wish it would drive a bit faster. I may try using the accelerator more often when its too slow. Hopefully, Tesla will get feedback from that.

If you were being driven by Waymo do you think you would have noticed the problems reported above if Waymo did them and you were in the back seat?
With every release I've always found my number 1 intervention is to adjust speed yet when I'm in a taxi or Uber I never pay attention to speed. I wonder if we're too focused (me included) on having FSD drive the same speed we do?

 

[tivoboy]

If one hasn’t already gotten it, this may not be the build for you.. I’ll be surprised if this goes more mainstream.

 

[Pdubs]

If one hasn’t already gotten it, this may not be the build for you.. I’ll be surprised if this goes more mainstream.

I've only got about 80 miles on this build but I find it much less dangerous and much more manageable, dare I say enjoyable even.

 

[KLam]

If you were being driven by Waymo do you think you would have noticed the problems reported above if Waymo did them and you were in the back seat?
With every release I've always found my number 1 intervention is to adjust speed yet when I'm in a taxi or Uber I never pay attention to speed. I wonder if we're too focused (me included) on having FSD drive the same speed we do?

I think Waymo never drive exceed speed limit and often slower.

 

[j0shm1lls]

I haven't got 12.3 yet, the want is real. My M3P is pending a trade in for an X, so I have a feeling when I get the new car I might be on a factory build for a while until the FSD transfer goes through. Hoping to try 12.3 for a while before having to drive with my hands like a monster.

 

[primedive]

Yes on Chuck. V12.3 is acing his formerly problematic scenarios. UPLs are good except when the left is clear and it heads out to the median island way too leisurely. I'm not sure what Chuck is going to focus on next, but it wont be narrow unmarked lanes, double green lights, nor (soon) UPLs.

Car also nearly sticks its butt out in the lane instead of angling to be more parallel. Anyway, those intersections are madness. The fact that the car can handle them at all shows how far we’ve come.

 

[JB47394]

If you were being driven by Waymo do you think you would have noticed the problems reported above if Waymo did them and you were in the back seat?
With every release I've always found my number 1 intervention is to adjust speed yet when I'm in a taxi or Uber I never pay attention to speed. I wonder if we're too focused (me included) on having FSD drive the same speed we do?

I'm not the responsible driver in a Waymo.

 

[FSDtester#1]

I'm not the responsible driver in a Waymo.

Nope, your not.
The drivers located back at Waymo HQ waiting to takeover whenever their cars get stuck, which happens often are. Not a bad system for ~ $500k per car, hardware included, plus a staff to supervise and help drive all the cars.
Seems like a super scalable model.

/S

 

[aronth5]

I'm not the responsible driver in a Waymo.

Obviously. My question was if you were a passenger would you notice the speed issues you mentioned? It's not unreasonable to think that most of use who adjust speeds would care less it we weren't driving. Especially if we were in the back seat. I adjust speeds frequently and I'm beginning to wonder whether it's because I want FSD to drive just like I do when maybe that's not so important. The majority of V12 negative feedback seems to be related to speed so just wondering.