FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[tivoboy]

So, will you continue using FSDb all the time, putting in the hours in order to make it good and keeping your posting privileges here?

I don’t know what “posting privileges here” means, but I’ll continue to test it out… but I won’t continue to test the SAME BUILD over and over again on the same routes, or other routes when it is apparent what the deficiencies or concerns or in-capabilities still are. I don’t want to actually HIT the curb with either side wheels and I don’t really want to just piss off most other drivers around me. And for the most part, when I’m going from A to B for work or even personal journeys I don’t want to spend an EXTRA 15-20% of my time to get there. Over the course of the week, that’s quite a bit of overall time that I don’t have to waste. When I’m in NEW and different situations, I often tend to test it there more often since I’m trying to understand the additional corner cases where there is positive performance, negative performance or simple regression. Unfortunately, for TESLA to get ANY of this information one has to DISENGAGE (which hopefully, for them IS a data point although I somewhat doubt it) in order to send any INFO or audio about WHAT I experienced or perceived, and then only to RE-ENGAGE and continue with using/testing. If Tesla really wants to get specific and targeted input for a HUMAN to first interpret, they should introduce SOME ability to send info from the car - WITHOUT having to disengage first.

Frankly, at this point, I don’t really think they even care.

 

[KLam]

More and more testers are noticing this, and I'm sure it will be fixed soon. Also, it's a major safety issue, because the car will not slow down for a curve.

Here's a video that demonstrates it:

Note that if there is a car in front of you, this problem doesn't exist.

So, are you sure that you did not accelerate just before you cross the yellow line on the right curve? The car might have already calculated the speed modulation to take the curve on an entry speed slower than your acceleration input and did not have time to recalculate.

 

[tmoz]

I should have been clearer. I was mostly referring to Stop sign intersections. And I rarely do jackrabbit starts unless it's needed to avoid cars coming up to me at obstructed view intersections which I have a lot of. Staying too far back is just not as safe. For traffic lights just stop at the line.

At traffic lights, I try to make sure there are no red light runners when the light turns green for me, so I like to get a view of the cross traffic which does require creeping up far enough, sometimes a little further than comfortable to see around an SUV or large truck.

 

[asterothe]

What's the percentage of HW4 deployments so far? Are they sending to any HW4s?

 

[Ben W]

However, while it's possible to try to encourage new "emergent" AI capabilities from nothing, it's much less costly to give it an imperfect, underachieving but basically capable structure, and let the E2E refine it so that it actually works well.

Surprisingly, this is not always the case. An example: AlphaGo developed world-class capabilities from training on an enormous library of professional human games, but it was eventually leapfrogged by AlphaZero, which started completely from scratch. In other words, the pre-existing structure is likely to have systematic mistakes and biases which will be difficult to overcome. (Some of the rules of thumb in Go, developed over centuries of human play and therefore baked into the training dataset, turned out to be suboptimal.) What I DO expect to help, however, is to find a way to incorporate "negative" examples into the training: e.g. a driver running a stop sign, with strong negative rather than positive reinforcement for mimicking this behavior. I'm not sure if Tesla's training system currently has any mechanism for this?

 

[JulienW]

WOW, color me impressed. I have constantly complained about how often PER MILE I would have to intervene with FSD Beta. I do live in the middle of the city so it is almost all urban driving and the edge cases, congestion, tight lanes, construction VRUs, etc. were problems.

This morning I drove super long way to the gym and work meandering around ATL and 12.3 is WholeMars like . Two trips of several miles all inner-city and only 1 (optional) disengagement. I knew there was a poorly repaired drainage to avoid ahead.

First I went on GA Tech campus because I knew that just today they were blocking off a street to add bike lanes. FSD traveled the part that was ½ blocked off like a champ, though it did have to "think" a second about the painted off Yellow lines and the lane shifting. Got to the point were it was Closed and oddly there were several humans struggling at the intersection and FSD waited on them backing and turning around before rerouting perfectly. Was hoping for more student/ped/VRU interaction but was early.

V11 was (sorry to all waiters) always soooo robotic but V12 is just soooo different. Little things like when behind a car and it is turning right V11 slows to a near stop and waits for the car to completely turn before resuming. V12 slows but keeps more momentum and as the car turns it continues without hesitation. So human like.

Looking forward to v12.69 that should be really stimulating.

 

[CaCar]

What's the percentage of HW4 deployments so far? Are they sending to any HW4s?

I got v12.3 on 3/15/24(am7:00)
HW4, v4.1.9 MX, CA, No employees/Special groups

 

[Mardak]

at first I had AUTO set speed off, and the scroll wheel wouldn’t do ANYTHING above the speed that it though was posted

Right, it seems like with AUTO off or on, 12.x drives slower than the posted/detected speed limit if it thinks that's appropriate whereas 11.x tried pretty hard to get to and maintain the set speed even when inappropriate. This is actually much better for a particular scenario here where 11.x would turn into a residential street still thinking it should go 40mph. However, in the common case of just going straight on the same road, current 12.3 behavior seems to unnecessarily go slower unless reminded to go faster with nearby traffic or manual accelerator press. I did notice 12.3 going faster than the posted speed with AUTO off or on, but these were relatively rare from my initial testing.

The description for AUTO when enabling says it adjusts for Chill vs Average vs Assertive, but if it does have an effect, it's not very obvious. And it's confusing in that 12.x will adjust speed independent of this feature toggle.

Automatic Set Speed Offset allows Autopilot to drive at the speed that it determines is most natural. This considers factors like road type, traffic flow, environmental conditions, speed limit and the selected Full Self-Driving (Beta) Profile setting (Chill, Average, or Assertive).​

​

The driver is always responsible for the speed of the vehicle and is expected to intervene as needed.​

 

[CaCar]

I got v12.3 on 3/15/24(am7:00)
HW4, v4.1.9 MX, CA, No employees/Special groups

* from v11.4.9

 

[tivoboy]

Right, it seems like with AUTO off or on, 12.x drives slower than the posted/detected speed limit if it thinks that's appropriate whereas 11.x tried pretty hard to get to and maintain the set speed even when inappropriate. This is actually much better for a particular scenario here where 11.x would turn into a residential street still thinking it should go 40mph. However, in the common case of just going straight on the same road, current 12.3 behavior seems to unnecessarily go slower unless reminded to go faster with nearby traffic or manual accelerator press. I did notice 12.3 going faster than the posted speed with AUTO off or on, but these were relatively rare from my initial testing.

The description for AUTO when enabling says it adjusts for Chill vs Average vs Assertive, but if it does have an effect, it's not very obvious. And it's confusing in that 12.x will adjust speed independent of this feature toggle.

Automatic Set Speed Offset allows Autopilot to drive at the speed that it determines is most natural. This considers factors like road type, traffic flow, environmental conditions, speed limit and the selected Full Self-Driving (Beta) Profile setting (Chill, Average, or Assertive).​

​

The driver is always responsible for the speed of the vehicle and is expected to intervene as needed.​

I have found on city streets, non direct residential where it’s posted 30-35, car wants to go MAYBE 29, and on residential where it’s posted or should be assumed 25, car wants to max out at 18/19.. that’s just not acceptable.

 

[arnolddeleon]

V11 was (sorry to all waiters) always soooo robotic but V12 is just soooo different. Little things like when behind a car and it is turning right V11 slows to a near stop and waits for the car to completely turn before resuming. V12 slows but keeps more momentum and as the car turns it continues without hesitation. So human like.

Yeah, in V11 you *felt* a robot was driving when it was going wrong. With V12, even when it is going wrong, *feels* more like a human driver getting it wrong. Some of this obvious, less wheel jerking (not quite zero). But I'm not sure that as human I don't do micro corrections that are imperceptible to passengers because of slop between steering input and the vehicle whereas if you're supervising FSD correctly, your hand on the wheel sense all the twitches.

 

[asterothe]

* from v11.4.9

I have 11.4.9 and waiting with MS. What's v4.1.9 that you put?

 

[henderrj]

For me it's been a while since shadows were an issue. It looks like the steering control (NN) isn't tracking tight turns well. Even tight turn entry steering looks a a bit laggy and disconnected. And turn radius appears to get tighter where it crosses over the yellow line. That might be a worst case scenario going from a tight left turn to tight right turn with a decreasing radius. Maybe a good location for Tesla to collect data.

To be clear, I didn't actually say that I thought autopilot was trying to follow the shadows. Although I think that's a possibility. I think it's more likely that a tight turn, combined with a shadow, which lessons resolution, could be the issue. It will be fun to follow! (Pun intended!)

 

[AndrewZ]

Quiet. The stock is up 8.68 points now.

You’d hope solving autonomy would do a lot more than just bring the stock back to under where it was a week ago

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You can also roll the right scroll wheel and see arrows flash next to the auto speed indicator, but there is no driving effect that I can tell. I rolled the wheel downward a lot and the car just kept going at the same speed. I wonder what the intent is for this?

It adjusts the target speed in the non-auto mode. Which is not in use, so you don’t see the adjustment. This is why you saw 85mph when you switched mode back.

9 miles, 6 disengagements (2 safety critical), 20+ interventions. Similar to v11.4.9 so far by those metrics. Though the safety critical ones were directly due to new v12 behavior.

Definitely drives less robotically. Lots of differences.

Still doesn’t know how to stop. Lots and lots of pre-emphasis characteristic on the braking profile. No good. Must fix.

10961 Sunset Ridge Dr to Lusk Boulevard & Telesis Court

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[CaCar]

I have 11.4.9 and waiting with MS. What's v4.1.9 that you put?

v4.1.9 typo error.
I have v12.3 from v11.4.9

 

[JulienW]

No doubt the biggest change from V11 to V12 is from the pure robotic actions to very human like driving behavior.

[crazy a$$ 420 like day dreaming]In the far future (like by the end of the year ) that Tesla could offer different driving "human styles" and you could go through a list and pick the "human style" of driving that best fits what you like. Could even be a revenue generator with Tesla charging extra for more specialized "styles".

 

[asterothe]

v4.1.9 typo error.
I have v12.3 from v11.4.9

Thanks. You give me hope.

 

[j0shm1lls]

Oh, how I long for Tesla's full self driving 12.3, But alas, it seems everyone else has it but me. I watch as they glide effortlessly down the road, While I remain stuck, feeling like a toad.

The promise of autonomous driving is so enticing, But without it, my heart feels like it's icing. I dream of the day when I can sit back and relax, While my Tesla whisks me away, no need to track.

But for now, I wait with bated breath, Hoping that soon I'll join the ranks of the blessed. Until then, I'll watch as others enjoy the ride, And silently weep for my unfulfilled pride.

So here I am, longing for Tesla's full self driving 12.3, Hoping that someday soon, it will be granted to me.

 

[Mardak]

Still doesn’t know how to stop. Lots and lots of pre-emphasis characteristic on the braking profile.

My initial drives with 12.3 were also a mixed bag of fixes for long-time 11.x disengagements/interventions and new incorrect behaviors including various issues with stopping/braking, but it sounds like your particular concern was more of starting to stop too late resulting in stronger deceleration or unnecessary jerk? I had a couple instances of double-stops at stop signs as well as at least once where it suddenly decided it needed to stop sooner, so plenty of accelerator taps to try to adjust the behavior.

Based on your route, it seems like almost all stops were for traffic lights? Or were you noticing braking profile issues with stop signs or generally stopped vehicles too?