And what happened to the states that did not want to comply with the change that the government wanted?
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This was discussed up thread, he doesn't actually say that, but something a bit different:
Elon Musk Predicts Level 4 Or 5 Full Self-Driving 'Later This Year' For the Tenth Year In A Row - The Autopian
There are lots of things I don’t understand. Dutch. Crocs worn by people over 14 or if you’re not wading in water. String theory. People who get really into wine. But, perhaps most significantly, I absolutely do not understand why Elon Musk, noted billionaire, entrepreneur, Twitter messer-upper...www.theautopian.com
Elon saying that FSD will achieve either level 4 or 5 this year (last year).
"I think we will achieve full self driving, depending on what level you call it, four or five, I think later this year."
Of course as mention up thread a while back he never actually says he meant the SAE definition, especially given how vaguely he says it (basically that whatever that is achieved might be called Level 4 or 5 by some people).
That's not Elon though. Actually people here have long argued FSD Beta is L2 and Tesla's official position has long been consistent with that, but the argument from the other side is that Tesla is just lying to get around regulators (similar to how Uber said their car was a L2 car even though it was actually a L4 car under test, simply because there were safety drivers). I'm of the former BTW.
Update Vehicle Firmware to Improve Certain FSD Beta Driving Operations | Tesla Support
Tesla has issued a voluntary recall on certain Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles that have installed or pending installation of software that contains the Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta feature. This recall affects only US and CA vehicles. Affected vehicles were identified based on...www.tesla.com
After the recall in 2023, Tesla called FSD Beta a SAE Level 2 driver support feature.
Tesla stating FSD is level 2 to California in 2021:
Tesla Admits Current ‘Full Self-Driving Beta’ Will Always Be a Level 2 System: Emails
A Tesla regulatory counsel told the California DMV that it will remain a hands-on system.www.thedrive.com
Any exact quotes (especially mentioning SAE explicitly) so we can understand what was actually said?
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That's strange. We live in the same city, drive on the same street but your car behavior is different than mine.
You said your speed offset is 20%?
I set mine to 7 mph. It should not make any difference. But who knows.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
All this discussion of SAE levels and none of SAE level deniers have said how unsupervised FSD will not conform to SAE L3-5.
While it is Tesla FSD SAE L2 and we can pretend it is Kmart L6. AKA: Blue light special.
The mental exercises some go through to try to convince themselves something.
No one else in the world (outside of Tesla fanboys) would categorize FSD as anything but a Level 2 system, because by all definitions it only meets the SAE Level 2 standards. The work around to that is either, "SAE is bullshit" or creating a conspiracy to protect themselves from regulators?
It's absurd. Do you have to monitor FSDB? Yes? It's level 2...the car isn't driving without supervision, even if you don't want to mention levels. Elon has always said the end game is sleeping or watching a movie while the car drives. It cannot do that, Waymo can, Mercedes can, both have their limitations...which is the purpose of the SAE levels to describe those limitations and categorize. No car can just drive everywhere without a driver...also no car is SAE level 5.
It's not rocket science.
I googled FSD Beta SAE levels and there were hundreds of articles, including the entire AI day where it spoke of Karpathy and Elon mention SAE levels. Not like that matters, Tesla says in plain English that FSDB is a SAE Level 2 system on Tesla.com (linked) and people want to warp that because they don't live in reality.
Apologies if I didn't make myself clear enough. As I saw several answers to my point, like the above and this one: FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
I'm challenging the assumption that once it's x times safer than the best human driver, Tesla should automatically switch to legal L3. To simplify the definition of legal L3, let's say that legal L3 has both stopped being monitored, removed disclaimers and made Tesla legally liable. I apologize again if I abused the L3 term as what I meant was as safe as "official/legal" L3.
The main incentives to switch to legal L3 for Tesla might be to increase utility and demand. It'd increase utility because you could spend time reading books, working, making video calls, etc., and demand at the same price point.
But you're still increasing the utility if you're x times safer and don't switch to legal L3. You're saving tons of lives, and people like me would happily shell out $200 per month even if I had to keep my eyes on the road. It'd mean that it would be safer than me driving, and I could make hands-off phone calls without being distracted and the fear of making mistakes. If I crash while I keep my eyes on the road while driving on super-safe L2 because the other driver made a mistake, I'd be as liable as if I kept my eyes on the road and drove any other car.
Switching to L3 would mean many new headaches for Tesla (like ambulance chasers in Delaware), so even if they're technically L3-ready, they'll have to do a cost/benefit analysis and determine when it's the right time.
I'm adding a different point of view: Being safe enough to switch to legal L3 doesn't mean you have to because there might be more goals than just maximising utility or demand.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The argument by the other side is that the driver monitoring is only required because it is still under development, just like how SAE L4 cars need a safety driver. Of course, as I mentioned I'm not part of that group that argues that, but some here are. Basically the argument is over what is the difference between a SAE L2 door to door system (which is what I argue FSD Beta is) versus a SAE L4 system that is still under development and has bugs (requiring a safety driver to take over when it inevitably happens).
Articles are 100% worthless because it's a huge telephone game where the "journalists" all throw in their own interpretation or even embellish things with facts they made up. Heck, just for the past Model X accident, I saw plenty of articles claim that the touchscreen shifter was the cause, when there was zero indication that the car had that instead of stalks (in fact the original WSJ article that all the stories were based on says it was a 2020 Model X, which had stalks).
Only the exact quote (not paraphrasing) is worth something, especially with the other context.
powertoold
Active Member
During the first autonomy day, Elon responded to an analyst's question about whether he meant level 5, Elon answered "yes," although I don't think the acronym "SAE" was included in that response, but that's probably what he meant
I don't know the specific time, but it was during q&a I believe
But that was a long time ago, and plans may have changed
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes, I referred to that before up thread, I just was not able to find the source and I asked and no one was able to either.
Pdubs
Ingesting large quantities of LSD
It's a bad argument.
You have to ignore the statements from the company or even the ambitions of it's CEO that it will become a Level 4 or 5 system.
There are design limitations to FSD currently that go behind a human monitoring and frequently correcting the system. Even if there were 0 interventions, it's still a level 2 system if the human is required to supervise. FSD Beta is not even a perfected Level 2 system, which is the craziest when people say it's already L3 or L4. IF FSDB was currently a L4 system with a safety driver, the system would be able to do full DDT and fallback DDT within it's limited Operational Design Domain. The safety driver is there for liability reasons and validation of the system. The car, with a safety driver, is still designed to take complete control, but that's not the case with FSDB. How FSDB is designed, the driver is responsible for some of the OEDR or Object and Event Detection and Response or monitoring for accidents/issues/need for disengagement. A L3 system handles all DDT, monitors OEDR, but does not have a fallback DDT, that's where it asks you to take over.
FSDB is not designed as a L4 system with a safety driver...again, that's just an odd reach/leap mostly for the investor crowd to hope that Tesla is closer than it is.
What about non-highway situation? I thought MLC also applies in urban roads? Does V12 respect this setting like the way V11 used to do?
j0shm1lls
Member
I obviously don't need the FSD test drive when I pick up the X, but if its offered should I still do it and record it for posterity 
?
?I've gone on a few test drives with 12.3 and like most have been suitably impressed with the improvements, and annoyed with the auto speed.
The only disengagement I've had so far is an important one though, where it tried to make a left on a red light. It's a weird intersection where the street curves at the last moment to meet the cross street at a T and there is a left turn arrow and two right turn arrows. In this case the car needed to go left and at that time the left arrow was red and the two right turn arrows were green, and it seemed to think that its lane was green, and decided to go ahead and make the left.
The only disengagement I've had so far is an important one though, where it tried to make a left on a red light. It's a weird intersection where the street curves at the last moment to meet the cross street at a T and there is a left turn arrow and two right turn arrows. In this case the car needed to go left and at that time the left arrow was red and the two right turn arrows were green, and it seemed to think that its lane was green, and decided to go ahead and make the left.
Keep the phone as close as you can over the center console so the Tesla representative gets the non stop nags to pay attentionI obviously don't need the FSD test drive when I pick up the X, but if its offered should I still do it and record it for posterity
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