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The authorities in Germany have detected that the emissions in certain cities are above the limits. These are standards set for Germany only and as the pollution standards are heterogenous in Europe a ruling from a local court applies only for that country. IOW its just for Germany and still to be decided.
No, it's the EU that sets the limits in Europe. Member states probably can set stricter limits if they want to, but it's the European Commission that is pressuring the German government to take action, along with other countries.
Norway is subject to the same limits through the EEA agreement, and we have the same issues in the larger cities.

It likely will be either a shared cost between automaker and German Government or just the Government. You can imagine that the German Taxpayer will not take the costs for the Auto Industry cheating in Norway....
It's my understanding it's the KBA that has approved the cars for EU roads, and it's they who will have to bring proceedings for the whole of the EU. Norway can not do anything. The Commission has started proceedings against Germany and others for failing to take action, and they've recently gotten a deal for how they can enforce the standards going forward

I really recommend this ProPublica article on how VW has gotten off in Europe with no consequences so far

In other news in Europe, Germany is discovering that there is large lead times when ordering electric cars, half a year is common.

For Europe the Model 3 can't come soon enough!
 
My weekend off topic thoughts are on the Roadster 2020 and the surprising progress on it. I'm happy that Tesla is able to surprise us all with a fantastic progress at one of its projects and I think of what it meas to us.

So what projects are there beside the Roadster 2020?
Next Gen Model S, Next Gen Model X, Model Y, Pickup, Semi, Model 3

If you look at the Model 3 and Roadster 2020 concept it is obvious that Model S and Mode X are outdated and there need to be a new generation of the models and not just a refresh.

I hope this next gen Model S as well as Model Y is much higher on the priority list than the Roadster 2020 and so the progress there is at least the same as on Roadster 2020. There are just not able to show it as the next gen Model S need to be unveiled just before availability to keep the Model S revenue stream up and Model Y can't be revealed as long as Model 3 revenues are not coming in strong.

I think nothing will be communicated to the public until Model 3 is at 5k/week and at a good margin. Then I hope we will see Next gen Model S produced on the same line as Model 3 and ramping up to 10k/week. The old Model S/X line is now just for the old Model X.

Next Gen Model S is available right after the first presentation to the public late 2018 and Model Y will be available 12-18 month after the unveil event.

What do you think?
 
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No, it's the EU that sets the limits in Europe. Member states probably can set stricter limits if they want to, but it's the European Commission that is pressuring the German government to take action, along with other countries.
Norway is subject to the same limits through the EEA agreement, and we have the same issues in the larger cities.


It's my understanding it's the KBA that has approved the cars for EU roads, and it's they who will have to bring proceedings for the whole of the EU. Norway can not do anything. The Commission has started proceedings against Germany and others for failing to take action, and they've recently gotten a deal for how they can enforce the standards going forward

I really recommend this ProPublica article on how VW has gotten off in Europe with no consequences so far

In other news in Europe, Germany is discovering that there is large lead times when ordering electric cars, half a year is common.

For Europe the Model 3 can't come soon enough!


Local cities can set stricter requirements. In Belgium, the big cities are starting with LEZs (Low Emission Zone). Currently there’s a LEZ in Antwerp, in 2020 joined by Ghent, and even smaller cities like Mechelen are also introducing a LEZ. In practice, this means my old Toyota Corolla Diesel won’t be allowed in Ghent anymore. This car is mainly driven by by children, who need the car to get to school in Ghent. Luckily it will be replaced by my first Model 3, so as long as I can get my Model 3 the LEZ in Ghent won’t have any consequences for us, but it will have consequences for lots of people that didn’t plan to replace their oldest car.
In 2020 only Euro 5 (or better) will be allowed in Ghent, with Euro 4 allowed after some kind if payment.
In 2025 onlt Euro 6 will be allowed in Ghent, with Euro 5 allowed with some kind of payment.
Every car (older than 4 years) has get an official technical review every year in Belgium, this time I got a leaflet explaining the consequences of the Ghent LEZ to me. The main messag on that leaflet was ‘Beware about the LEZ if you’re buying a second hand car, you may not be allowed in Ghent for the entere remainder of the lifetime of that car’.
This must have an impact on the resale prices of cars. Even now, lease cars at the end of their 4 year lease may only be Euro 4, and certainly will only be Euro 5 in the best case, meaning any buyer will be impacted by the LEZs, either by not being allowed in those cities any more, or by having to pay some kind of (yearly) at somepoint in the remainder if the lifetime of their car.
Even if the second hand market solves this by exporting these cars to other parts of Europe that don’t have LEZ rules yet, it will mean import of higher priced Euro 6 second hand vehicles in our local market.
Given that we’re one of the worst Nox polluted regions in Europe, these LEZ’s can’t come soon enough!
 
No, it's the EU that sets the limits in Europe. Member states probably can set stricter limits if they want to, but it's the European Commission that is pressuring the German government to take action, along with other countries.
Norway is subject to the same limits through the EEA agreement, and we have the same issues in the larger cities.


It's my understanding it's the KBA that has approved the cars for EU roads, and it's they who will have to bring proceedings for the whole of the EU. Norway can not do anything. The Commission has started proceedings against Germany and others for failing to take action, and they've recently gotten a deal for how they can enforce the standards going forward

I really recommend this ProPublica article on how VW has gotten off in Europe with no consequences so far

In other news in Europe, Germany is discovering that there is large lead times when ordering electric cars, half a year is common.

For Europe the Model 3 can't come soon enough!

Okay, got you point and you are correct with standard set in Brussels but let me add this:

Regulations done in Brussels are not really worth that much as they only can be enforced in the members states. Thus, that never really worked out not with smoking emission and not with car emissions and others...... So to say that Brussels is pressuring anything in Germany with respect to cars is not correct as the German Auto industry has way more power in Germany and Europe/Brussels as we all like....

In other words the regulation in Brussel has not led to a change in the policy of emission in city's in Germany. Regulations are still written from VW and given to the lawmakers who use them as blueprint for laws. Thats unfortunately true in Niedersachsen as well as Berlin and likely Brussels too. Because of that German community's have been trying to sue and this is an now an ongoing process that hopefully does lead to law enforcement. Städtetag ruft nach blauer Plakette

More people in Germany are dying every year because of missing law enforcement in terms of this than dying because of accidents!

In a nutshell, yes Brussels set standards but if Germany ignores them which they did, its not worth much.....

Fully agree that VW has gotten off the hock in Germany/Europe and have no understanding that anybody is buying a VW these days. The only way to make VW responsible for the cheating they did and walking away with it without anything is that the consumer stands up and stop buying there cars! That would finally hurt them and make them reconsider.
 
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My weekend off topic thoughts are on the Roadster 2020 and the surprising progress on it. I'm happy that Tesla is able to surprise us all with a fantastic progress at one of its projects and I think of what it meas to us.

So what projects are there beside the Roadster 2020?
Next Gen Model S, Next Gen Model X, Model Y, Pickup, Semi, Model 3

If you look at the Model 3 and Roadster 2020 concept it is obvious that Model S and Mode X are outdated and there need to be a new generation of the models and not just a refresh.

I hope this next gen Model S as well as Model Y is much higher on the priority list than the Roadster 2020 and so the progress there is at least the same as on Roadster 2020. There are just not able to show it as the next gen Model S need to be unveiled just before availability to keep the Model S revenue stream up and Model Y can't be revealed as long as Model 3 revenues are not coming in strong.

I think nothing will be communicated to the public until Model 3 is at 5k/week and at a good margin. Then I hope we will see Next gen Model S produced on the same line as Model 3 and ramping up to 10k/week. The old Model S/X line is now just for the old Model X.

Next Gen Model S is available right after the first presentation to the public late 2018 and Model Y will be available 12-18 month after the unveil event.

What do you think?

I don’t think a refresh is priority right now, or even in the next 2-3 years. Their sales target is 100,000 MS&X per year, which I think Tesla will have no problem meeting. A refresh will be time consuming and costly, which is something Tesla cannot afford at the moment. I would rather they save that time & energy to put towards planning/building another GF, ramping M3 & autopilot development. When sales of S&X becomes sluggish, then let’s talk refresh. Plus there is zero competition right now, a refresh for something that continually sells so well just doesn’t make any sense.
 
This is another reason to fight for better alternatives to diesel electricity generators. Unfortunately many Tesla are powered with those too. Tesla Solar and Energy need to ramp up asap. I wish Elon spent some time on that too. He could speak up way more about that.

Have you seen Ta'u? Tesla converted the island from diesel gerators to solar/ battery.
Or look at Puerto Rico, using solar + battery instead of emergency diesel generators.
 
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I think next gen Model S/X will be at the same time than Model Y reveal.
Some people say it will be around august but I'm not sure about it, usually in August, business wise, it's very calm, a lot of people are in vacation etc.
Maybe in July, or most probably September.
 
This is another reason to fight for better alternatives to diesel electricity generators. Unfortunately many Tesla are powered with those too. Tesla Solar and Energy need to ramp up asap. I wish Elon spent some time on that too. He could speak up way more about that.

Or you, or me, or your neighbor could speak up. Why does Elon have to do everything? I imagine when Tesla Solar and Energy can hit the ground running we’ll hear even more about them from Elon than we do now.
 
Or you, or me, or your neighbor could speak up. Why does Elon have to do everything? I imagine when Tesla Solar and Energy can hit the ground running we’ll hear even more about them from Elon than we do now.

You're right, but right now the Tesla Powerwall doesn't make economic sense in Italy. It costs too much, and it's overkill in terms of capacity if you don't have already an electric car. Maybe powerpacks are economically feasible for solar or eolic farms, but unfortunately I don't have the hear of any electric company ;-) A friend of mine has a big system (32K in panels) but net-metering is good for him without stationary batteries (I always pester him about it).

Edit: what I think is that there is a objective delay (> 1 year) in terms of Tesla Solar and Energy promises/projections, but Model 3 is all we hear about. I understand it, but I'm not happy about it.
 
What do you think?

I agree that S feels old now when compared to 3. X not quite as old but getting there. I agree a refresh isn’t enough and a redo would be required. However, I have been unable to come up with a viable timeline or even reason for Tesla to do a refresh or redesign for S or X. Those two have served their purpose in the mission and Tesla is moving on to the next phase. There’s no time to piddle around making 100k of those two vehicles total per year when Tesla needs to make millions of 3, Y and pickup per year and make Semi to get those diesel beasts off our roads and make solar shingles, power walls, power packs, expand Supercharger Network, expand sales and service etc...
 
I am taking the word FUDster out of my vocabulary. I believe bears are simply misinformed on Tesla's prospects, durable competitive advantages, and valuation, while exhibiting human tendencies of pursuing self-interest to ensure survival, along with common cognitive and emotional biases. The following is my guiding principle, and I believe it applies here.

upload_2018-2-18_10-51-30.png
 
I am taking the word FUDster out of my vocabulary. I believe bears are simply misinformed on Tesla's prospects, durable competitive advantages, and valuation, while exhibiting human tendencies of pursuing self-interest to ensure survival, along with common cognitive and emotional biases.

Merchants of Doubt

Edit: Book or film
 
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I agree that S feels old now when compared to 3. X not quite as old but getting there. I agree a refresh isn’t enough and a redo would be required. However, I have been unable to come up with a viable timeline or even reason for Tesla to do a refresh or redesign for S or X. Those two have served their purpose in the mission and Tesla is moving on to the next phase. There’s no time to piddle around making 100k of those two vehicles total per year when Tesla needs to make millions of 3, Y and pickup per year and make Semi to get those diesel beasts off our roads and make solar shingles, power walls, power packs, expand Supercharger Network, expand sales and service etc...


Well I think it would still be ROI positive.
The S/X serve really good marketing purposes. At least until the Roadster comes out. Even though the Model 3 is a pure beast, the S/X is a class above and it gives prestige to the brand.
 
Ok what first principles approach allows a guy who recently purchases a S/X to get their M3 ahead of non owners who stood in line on day one?
This is pissing me off ... EM hear me do something ;)
Loyalty. Tesla is expressing loyalty to existing customers so as to engender customer loyalty to Tesla. Once you have your Model 3, you will become the beneficiary of the same loyalty.
 
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Loyalty. Tesla is expressing loyalty to existing customers so as to engender customer loyalty to Tesla. Once you have your Model 3, you will become the beneficiary of the same loyalty.

If someone bought a S/X 2-3 weeks ago? that equates to loyalty? so they deserve the M3's ahead of day one line waiters? Is that what you are equating this too?
 
Loyalty. Tesla is expressing loyalty to existing customers so as to engender customer loyalty to Tesla. Once you have your Model 3, you will become the beneficiary of the same loyalty.

Its also pretty clear that employees and owners have selected to delay their orders more then not. If you assume 7000 total deliveries to date including the recent invites that just went out. That is every employee and every US owner that does not want to delay their order for a SR, AWD, P or some other version. That is a very small number given the 500,000+ reservations. I am sure there are some non-US owners as well but most will clearly delay their orders and more then half are probably US. I would imagine that non-Owner invites would be going out any day now and the price of the LR is appropriate for those who can take full advantage of the tax credits. Actually the only thing that makes sense from a Tax perspective is to delay the SR until last since the person who can only afford to $35,000 cannot fully leverage the full tax credit. What is also critical is not so much how many model 3s get produced and delivered this quarter, but how many get produced and delivered starting at 200,000 in the US until the end the following quarter. I think this is what Tesla is focused on. Being able to deliver the maximum number of cars from 200,000 to 350,000 before the end of the top couple of levels of tax credits, which fit the model 3 very well. If you think about the base model S, the $7500 is less then 10% savings. For the 3, the $3750 is more then 10% of the base model 3 and that credit will extend at a minimum through the end of Q1 2019. You could say that everyone buying a base model S is rich, but I would guess that many stretched to buy that vehicle as many will stretch to buy a $45,000 model 3. Dont forget that the Base Model 3 is competitive with a base Camry with no tax credits. People will find a way to justify buying the $35,000 version in very large numbers with little or no fed tax incentives. The $1,875 credit continues through most of 2019, so US non-owners are going to be getting a good deal when compared to ICEv alternatives and even Bolts that are 2500 more expensive without fast charging.

Lastly, there are still state incentives and states can add incentives and many might as response to the lack of the US being in the Paris Accords. At just $2500 for state incentives, the Model 3 would crush the Camry in overall value. The market for that type of car in the US is upwards of a million per year. 30% share, which would less then mirror Model S's 36-40% market share, would be upwards of 300,000 base model 3s. The market for the higher end cars is smaller but still probably well over 200,000 in the US alone. Doubling that is how you get to a million Model 3s per year in terms of market demand. The problem now is building that many. My belief is that if Tesla can get to 5k/w, that is the milestone that is required to open up 10k through duplication and speeding up parts of the line. Everything else is just duplication. Another 10k a week could be added to the East Coast if the demand warrants, though my guess is that the new plant would mostly make Ys on the East Coast and a new plant in China would make Ys and 3s. The hope is also that the Model Y is based mostly on the Model 3 and thus the majority of the suppliers are set, many of the production processes including packs would be the same and just a matter of duplicating lines. There will certainly be some production hell because the cars are different, but Tesla will have a lot more experience with high volume automated production and even FWDs if they choose to go that direction (though I hope they do not).

I wonder how much of the Semi goes into the pickup or if it will be on the completely new Platform that Elon talked about originally for the Y. Its not a bad idea given the margins that could be leveraged by cutting massive costs out with a hyper automated alien dreadnought. This will be the blow that puts GM and Ford on their heels. The model Y is targeted at the Japanese markets and the S3X is targeted at the Germans. What was it that Churchill said: "This is not the end, this is not the beginning, but this is the beginning of the end."

The S3X is the beginning. The Y is not end but its the beginning of the end. But the Pickup IS THE END. This lineup will end ICEv by draining the margin out of the competition from the top down. This is the life blood of their ability to react. Without large amounts of cash, they are in trouble and the time to start working on the problem was 5 years ago. They are desperately behind the curve.
 
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