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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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The semi cannot be under estimated what it means to Tesla. When I think of Tesla Energy, there is all the consumer and utility related products that are all fine and innovative and will be a growing and an accelerating business for some time. But to me, its really nothing compared to what Tesla as its own customer with superchagers and megachargers. Better yet, the announcement that Tesla is going to partner with clients like DHL, Pepsi co. and all the other companies that have placed orders, to install charging at their locations. This could be a combination of Mega and Super charging. It would more then likely include very large solar installations and battery installations. Why this matters is that big companies pay very high electrical rates because they are peaking in energy demand when supply is at its most expensive. If they can have Tesla come in and smooth out this demand and supply imbalance with Solar and Batteries, they can save money on more then just their fuel cost and rates for recharging the Tesla Semis. The entire facility can save with lower and more stable rates. In some places, they can actually get paid for some of their own demand usage. I can see a situation where Tesla's charging infrastructure, world wide, would be the largest utility on the planet. Think about that. The biggest generator and consumer of electricity in the entire world. The value of this has not been really thought out. I truly believe that whether Tesla partners with customers or builds out charging themselves, it will be a very profitable business. The margins on the Semi will be fairly small but the margins for charging and installing charging and TE at customers sites will be extremely profitable. At a minimum, 30% GM as a blended rate across all Semi related recharging and TE. Elon always said that the Solar city acquisition would make sense and I think this, more then solar tiles and consumer products is what he meant.

Putting this into context. I own 2 EVs, but I supercharge a lot. If I only charged at home. my cars would nearly triple my electric bill, as it is it doubled. Of course my gasoline bills went to 0 or nearly 0, I still have a riding lawnmower at about $2 a week for half the year. Now imagine if half my neighborhood converted to EVs and had the same thing happen to them. The Utility would be doubling or more the amount of electricity sold into my neighborhood and many like mine. The simple math goes like this. $450 in Gas turns into $300 in electricity which turns into a $150 solar loan which now takes that $300/mo. in Electricity and turns it into peanuts. Tesla gets that cash up front and they have no installed charging infrastructure at my home, which will be here 30 years whether im hear or not. Now in this case Tesla wont be the Utility, but they will still make a good deal of money from the install.

Now if I was a Tesla semi customer, my semi would typically cost me about $4200 a month in fuel for 10,000mi/mo at 6-7mpg and $3 diesel. With Megacharging, that same 10,000mi/mo is 1MWh x .07/KWh or $70 for 500 miles, x2 x10 or $1400 for 10,000 miles. A lot of assumptions there but if the pack is actually smaller then it might be a bit cheaper. That is $4200 taken away from Big Oil and Gas and converted to Tesla. Lets say the margins on that fuel is %10 or $420/mo. At 30%, the $1400/mo is $420/mo. So Tesla, only using TE and Megachargers can completely offset and take over the profits of the entire oil and gasoline supply chain. As everyone knows, the margins on gas are slim at the retail level, but the inefficiency of getting that oil out of the ground, transporting it half way around the world, refining it and then transporting it all over the country, then taxing the crap out of it, leads to very little profit margin. Now take this and multiply it by 1000 class 8 semis, or 100,000 a year starting in 2022. That's $42 million in profits (compounded annually so that its $4.2B a month in 10 years with a million semis on the road) siphoned from oil and gas and directly into Tesla's coffers as the largest utility on the planet. Whether they partner with customers and get paid up front for hardware or they put in the hardware and charge for the energy. I realize this is capital intensive but there is a huge difference between raising capital for this type of effort where you have a captive customer who might sign an agreement to buy electricity for 30 years, vs the risk of buying equipment to build EVs that people might not even want.. yeah right. but you get the point. The other important thing to note is that Tesla will not sell a single Semi if you cant charge them, so a charging network is not an optional thing here, its mandatory. Tesla knows this more then anyone else as they would not have sold many model S's without charging.

You can argue that Tesla cannot make any markup from Charging at 7c/KWh. This is still tbd, but there is evidence that Solar + Battery costs can give you electricity at costs that would allow 30% GM. This is at today's rates and lets not forget that Tesla is going to be making their own panels and makes their own batteries so if wholesale rates already allow these margins, Tesla should be able to make sure that they have enough margin to make it all work. Elon did not pull that 7c number out of his rear end. If I am smart enough to do the basic math above, so is Tesla. Scale has a way of making all of this stuff work. Building one micro grid for megacharging may not work, but working with Local governments, utilities, customers like Pepsi, and you have a lot more places where you can work deals to keep costs down. Remember, utilities will like this because Its Diesel being converted to Electricity. Its new business for them and in many places, they are under regulatory pressure to buy more renewable energy. They do not have a choice. If they dont buy it, they need to buy credits to compensate. I know, because some are buying my credits for solar that I generate and consume myself. They dont even get the energy, they are paying me to use my own solar. This is not an insignificant amount and equates to about 20% of my total cost to go solar. My point is that batteries will not always be necessary, as net metering can be used as a battery. Batteries would only be used to offset higher rates from demand related fees. These are typically assessed for businesses that have very high demand during peak times. A system can be designed to fully leverage every option available. Big companies are spending a lot on energy and there is a tremendous opportunity for TE to give them a much lower blended rate while also making it much cheaper to transport their goods. The Solar city acquisition is looking better and better.

Anyway.. I know I preach a bit to much and some might call me a hyper bull or whatever, but I think people are missing the boat on why the Semi is so important. If the specs are anywhere near what they are hoping, then it is probably a more important vehicle then the model 3. A 100,000 semis is equivalent to 2.3 million model 3s in terms of consumption while only being about a million Tesla's in terms of battery requirements. Tesla didnt make buses for a reason. They didn't bother with a econbox for a reason. They believe in margins and they need them for the mission. The Semi is no different. I believe the scale required for the Semi will also make every Tesla cheaper by enabling massive economies of scale. For example, if you are going to build a billion battery cells, you can use custom machines that run faster then a machine gun pumping out cells. You can have raw materials come in one side and leave as completed packs and motors out the other end. This massive scale gives you a lot of power when it comes to securing natural resources. For example; Think about what happens If Tesla comes to you and says we will buy your entire supply for the next decade, just load up the Tesla semis when they show up.
There used to be a joke about HP that is wasn't really a computer company, but a printer company. But on the inside of the company, the joke was that it was really just an ink company.
 
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You make good points and it does seem clear, which is extremely alarming. It really does appear that no progress has been made. Which does not equate to what had just been reiterated recently. The two bottlenecks where the conveyance system and the pack assembly. And apparently no progress has been made even though equipment was onsite per the 8k. It only makes sense that there is little chance that production will not do 5x in 4 months. 2x maybe, but not 5x. This is a bridge to far. I for one will be buying some protective long term puts and putting in stop losses. Not an advice.

Tesla did NOT say everything for 2,500 was already on site.

Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is not dependent on the additional equipment that is currently located in Germany, as that equipment is expected to start ramping production during Q2 2018. With respect to battery module production, Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1, as well as the incremental capacity that is currently being added through the semi-automated lines that were also discussed during the conference call.

Captain Technicallity says:
Minimum requirement to hit the 2,500 k/wk requirement by end of Q1: Produce 2,500 cars during March 25-31 inclusive.
Timing required to have all assembly lines up to speed for this goal: Pre-March 25. (Assuming 2,500/wk peak they can do)
If they get equipment fully vetted to be able to produce 2.5k/wk on March 24th (and it does), that is as much hitting the stated goal of the 8K as doing it today.

New equipment gives step change in build rate, not ramped.
 
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Tesla did NOT say everything for 2,500 was already on site.



Captain Technicallity says:
Minimum requirement to hit the 2,500 k/wk requirement by end of Q1: Produce 2,500 cars during March 25-31 inclusive.
Timing required to have all assembly lines up to speed for this goal: Pre-March 25. (Assuming 2,500/wk peak they can do)
If they get equipment fully vetted to be able to produce 2.5k/wk on March 24th (and it does), that is as much hitting the stated goal of the 8K as doing it today.

New equipment gives step change in build rate, not ramped.


It says it right here in your quote: "Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1"

I know I dont read to good, but I cannot figure out why that means the equipment for the initial 2,500/w is not there at GF1. I man it literally says all the equipment is already there for 2500/w and that they do not need the German equipment to reach 2,500/w. I read this to mean that they would install the equipment there and use that to ramp to 2,500/w while they waited for the German equipment to arrive and be installed at which time it would ramp to an additional 2,500/w starting sometime in march and over the 2nd qtr and add to the existing, as of the Q2 goal to hit 2500 in Q1 which was just reiterated and the clarification that it was not dependent on new equipment but only equipment there.

What am I missing? Tesla seemed confident about 2500/w but here we sit just about a month away and production does not seem to have improved much. I dont think Tesla has registered any new VINs in a long time, which means they are still working through the 11k or so they had already registered so as of today, they dont even seem to need anymore. The rate at which Tesla registers new VINs in the coming weeks should be very telling. The highest VIN in the wild that I have seen is around 82xx. The highest register with NHSTA was around 11k if I recall. Did I miss an update on that?
 
I really don't think Tesla is anywhere near exhausting that pool of candidates. They have a backlog of 250k US reservations. Even if only 10% would go for the available specification, that's still 18k US potential customers left waiting so far.

Yes, among all the reservationists, Tesla can almost certainly find the 15K or so more they need to take the initial configuration being offered. That said, among the first day non-owner reservationists, it's not surprising that they sent out a larger number of invites this round than in the past, as, among other reasons, they probably feel they need to reach deeper into the list to find enough non-owners who will configure for $49K and up. My comment was in response to your suggestion that the signs you have seen of more reservationists being invited among this latest group (day 1 non-owners) vs. prior groups of owners was a signal that Tesla is not looking at deferring the 200K US delivery an extra quarter. Again, this was just one of several reasons why it makes sense this group was larger.

This seems inconsistent. Now till end of April is at least 10 weeks of production. That means 18k cars. In addition to the 6k or so delivered so far in the US in 2018. That's 184k, leaving only 16k Model S/X for 2018 January to June inclusive. If that were the case then domestic deliveries should already be estimated to July if not August.

My expectations for Model 3 US first half deliveries if Tesla executes such a plan is about 20,000. (which leaves about 19,000 first half S/X for the U.S., and is consistent with their still showing first half delivery on the reservation page). I'd agree that 6K is roughly what they've delivered for TM3 in 2018 to date, but, probably more likely a high guess than a low one. In any event, that means about 14K more to be built and delivered in the US. Obviously, 1,800/week, was an estimate, and I wrote about until the end of April. If they have delivered 6K already, and if they are on track to run at an 1,800/week average for the ten week period that just began, than, about the end of April, will turn out to mean about 10 days before the end of the month (an 1,800/week average with weekly production moving upwards along that roughly 10 week period of course means "below average" production until the end of the period, i.e., the last two weeks might be something like ~2,500 and ~3,000, with the previous 8 weeks averaging ~1,550).

My current hypothesis is that Tesla is positioning themselves for if they'd miss their ramp up. If adding more semi-automatic lines isn't feasible (they are already short on their labour pool to the point of pulling people from the S/X line) and the German equipment isn't ready to scale up pretty much immediately in Q2 then we'd be looking at the current sub 1k/week rate for a few more months. On Feb 9th Tesla confirmed that they are scaling up semi automatic production. But with the very short turn around time between production/VIN assignment/delivery, we'd see that happen with at most one or two weeks delay. Since that day however, the tracking is undeniably pointing to a flat production rate somewhat shy of 1k/week. It may still come to pass but I think it is at least a bit delayed compared to Elon's expectations (what's not).

To summarize : invite many Americans now. If the German line works pretty much out of the box early Q2 then pump cars out at 3k-5k/week and blow through 200k in Q2. Inconveniences some customers but demand is certainly not the problem anyway and Wall Street will be very happy just in time for raising money through either some packages leases or straight out bond/equity offering to finance expansion to 10k/Model Y/Semi. If the German line doesn't work, shareholders won't be happy anyway because they care mostly about totale volume. In that case optimize for the most happy American customers by trying to time 200k arrival early July.

Very good, lols, at least, it seems, at some point among all these posts back and forth, you've come to agree that Tesla appears to very likely be trying to position themselves such that pushing off crossing 200K US deliveries to Q3 is at least an option that will be open to them.
 
It says it right here in your quote: "Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1"

That quote continues with ... as well as. Wording is confusing but I read it as both the equipment already in place as well as new to be added capacity is necessary.
 
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It says it right here in your quote: "Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1"

You dropped the following clause:
as well as the incremental capacity that is currently being added through the semi-automated lines that were also discussed during the conference call.

"Currently being added" can mean things at GF1 that are not installed, it can mean things currently being shipped to GF1.
 
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Very good, lols, at least, it seems, at some point among all these posts back and forth, you've come to agree that Tesla appears to very likely be trying to position themselves such that pushing off crossing 200K US deliveries to Q3 is at least an option that will be open to them.

Thanks for the compliment. I have gone back and forth on what Tesla is doing on this (and many more issues) countless times as more evidence and arguments come in. Only the idiots have only ever one point of view.
 
Reuters - this morning: Corporate America’s new dilemma: raising prices to cover higher...

No mention of electric semi-trucks and Tesla being the solution for bringing down transportation costs.
It's very nice for freight demand and costs to climb before Tesla enters semi market. Tesla doesn't just cut costs. It eliminates fuel price volatility, reduces need for incremental drivers, and even provides an nice ride to attract needed drivers. It's nice to know that in the long-run electric trucks will reduce energy-led and labor-led price inflation to consumer goods. This is especially important to developing economies where energy-led inflation can lead to malnutrition.
 
I also think Tesla didn't improve the production rate. When I created the chart below, I wanted to make it as accurate as possible. Here is a data point from this document that I've used in calculations:

As a result of the significant growth in our production rate, we made as many Model 3's since December 9th as we did in the more than four months of Model 3 production up to that point.

Production was 2,685 units at the end of Q4 2017 (260 in Q3 and 2425 in Q4). Half of that is 1,342 units. That means they made 1,342 units until 9 Dec and 1343 from 9 to 31 Dec 2017. Based on my calculation, weekly production was 173 units on 9 Dec and 660 units on 31st Dec. Currently, VIN calculations show maximum 780/week.

In the chart, you see a steep increase in March. I don't know if this will be actually the case but I'm watching the data. Many reservation holders have received invites recently and they will enter their VINs as soon as they receive it from Tesla. Tesla provides the VINs on average 10 days before delivery. On the Invites spreadsheet, 297 people have updated their data since 22 February when Tesla sent out invites to non-owners. As soon as these people start entering VINs, this chart that shows weekly numbers will update automatically.

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You dropped the following clause:


"Currently being added" can mean things at GF1 that are not installed, it can mean things currently being shipped to GF1.


Quote from you in its entirety: "Tesla did NOT say everything for 2,500 was already on site."

The site I am assuming is the GF1. They clearly said everything they needed was on site.

"Currently being added" certainly could mean that stuff is not there, except that in the same statement, they say all the stuff is there. Wouldnt they say Currently will be added if its not there. Currently being added kind of says its there being added now or they would have said, being added sometime in the future. Currently kind of implies that its happening at the time of the announcement.

its really a pointless argument because it seems clear they have not made any progress this year. I will be on the look out for progress.
 
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I have nothing to back this up, but I personally think Tesla isn’t trying to ramp up until the fully automated battery pack assembly is online as they’re using the slower production to reduce the number of Model 3 vehicles they are silently repairing. I’ve seen a number of instances online where people are mentioning they take their Model 3 in for one thing and 3 things get replaced, unrelated to what they took their car in for. That means to me they are identifying problem parts and revising them to improve reliability. Proactive replacement is a good thing for sure, but it’s reflective of how Tesla operates from an iterative refinement process. It is probably best to limit production until these items are worked out instead of some big stink arising 6 months later.

Some anecdotal items I’ve noticed lately, it seems used Model S prices are holding up well and even increasing some due to the increased interest that is being generated by the Model 3 and likely the Roadster space launch. I expect this to continue until people no longer have to wait for the Model 3, at which point prices for any Model S without AP2 will fall considerably.
 
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I have nothing to back this up, but I personally think Tesla isn’t trying to ramp up until the fully automated battery pack assembly is online as they’re using the slower production to reduce the number of Model 3 vehicles they are silently repairing. I’ve seen a number of instances online where people are mentioning they take their Model 3 in for one thing and 3 things get replaced, unrelated to what they took their car in for. That means to me they are identifying problem parts and revising them to improve reliability. Proactive replacement is a good thing for sure, but it’s reflective of how Tesla operates from an iterative refinement process. It is probably best to limit production until these items are worked out instead of some big stink arising 6 months later.

If that was the case, they wouldn't have reiterated on both the call and the 8k that they intended to increase production. They would have said, we are going to wait to raise production until the new hardware gets here. Instead they said the exact opposite.
 
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Electrek - 9 minutes ago: Tesla Model X P100D all-electric SUV sets new quickest SUV record

Barron's - this morning: Big Stock Buys: GE, Tesla, Apple, Netflix

Speaking of art, one way of framing investment moves Guggenheim made in the fourth quarter are by examining its relatively large purchases of stock in both General Electric (ticker: GE) and Baker Hughes a GE Company (BHGE), GE’s publicly traded joint venture. Guggenheim also bought more Tesla (TSLA), Apple (AAPL) and Netflix (NFLX).

Guggenheim only has 44,000 shares of TSLA, which is small compared to their AUM, so it's probably some sort of indexing play.
 
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/arti...ng-delayed-quiet-cars-rule-extending-deadline

The long-delayed rules, which were first demanded by Congress in 2010, will require automakers like Tesla Inc, Nissan Motor Co and General Motors Co to add sounds to vehicles when they are moving at speeds of up to 18.6 miles per hour (30 km per hour) to help prevent injuries among pedestrians, cyclists and the blind.

The regulation requires the sounds be added to all "quiet" vehicles by September 2020 - a year behind the schedule announced by the administration of former President Barack Obama in November 2016. Automakers must have the sounds in 50 percent of vehicles by September 2019.


The agency estimates the odds of a hybrid vehicle being involved in a pedestrian crash are 19 percent higher than with a traditional gasoline-powered vehicle. About 125,000 pedestrians and cyclists are injured annually on roads in the United States
 
If my memory is correct, the title
Of this article is incorrect. The DHL exec said roughly "the difference in cost between the Tesla semi and a diesel semi would be paid for within 2 years". Still great, but not the entire semi as the title incorrectly states.
From the article:
To give the exact words, the President of Transportation at DHL Supply Chain, Jim Monkmeyer, was quoted by Reuters as saying: “We are estimating that we could have pay back within a year-and-a-half based on energy usage as well as lower maintenance cost.

“The maintenance savings can be enormous as well. Just because the engines are much simpler in terms of the number of parts and the complexities of the parts.”
 
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