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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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I am sure that Tesla is not interested in buying a large automaker.

I am sure that if Elon Musk isn’t interested in buying a legacy automaker, it isn’t going to happen. I am also sure that, if he’s interested in buying a legacy automaker, he isn’t going to show it. So we can’t know what’s going to happen.

Right now, Tesla is worth $54.99 billion. With $2 billion in cash & annual production capacity of less than a million cars annually. That’s how much investors (mostly large institutions) value the leadership team, the business model, and the competitive advantages.

Now take that same company with $22 billion in cash and annual production capacity of more than 5 million cars annually. How much more is that company worth? Gone are all the short narratives of bankwuptcy, etc. Gone are the questions of how they’ll fund the Gigafactory, the China factory, Model Y production, etc. Gone are the questions about where they’ll build it.

Maybe I’m just dreaming. Or maybe “It will be next level. These are really big numbers.” We’ll see.
 
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I recently finished reading The Everything Store – Jeff Bezos and the Age of Amazon.” I didn’t know much about the history of Amazon so it was quite enlightening. While looking back it is easy to assume that Amazon’s great success was a foregone conclusion, nothing could be farther from the truth. There were many failures, crisis points, and near death experiences. Sounds like Tesla, right? In fact I was amazed at the number of similarities between what Tesla has gone/is going thru and the earlier days of Amazon. Here’s what I found, supported by some passages from the book.

- Amazon needed outside capital in order to fund its growth. While the bear narrative whenever a Tesla bull tries to compare the two companies is that Amazon grew only by investing cash flow from operations, that is not true.

To open new categories and build new warehouses, Amazon needed more than a plan; it needed additional capital. So that May [1998] the company raised $326 million in a junk-bond offering, and the following February, another $1.25 billion in what was at the time the largest convertible debt offering in history…In those highly carbonated years, from 1998 to early 2000, Amazon raised a breathtaking $2.2B in three separate bond offerings.

Note that Amazon’s revenues were only $2.8B in 2000, up from $600M in 1998.

- Amazon could have gone bankrupt during the dotcom crash.

In February [2000] Amazon sold $672 million in convertible bonds to overseas investors…Amazon was forced to offer a far more generous 6.9 percent interest rate and flexible conversion terms…Without that cushion, Amazon would almost certainly have faced the prospect of insolvency over the next year.

- Amazon’s financial situation was under attack by negative Wall Street analysts for a long time.

Working from Amazon’s latest quarterly earnings release, Suria [Lehman Brothers] analyzed the heavy losses of the previous holiday season and concluded that the company was in trouble, and in a widely disseminated research report, he predicted doom.

“From a bond perspective, we find the credit extremely weak and deteriorating,” he wrote in what would be the first of several scathing reports on Amazon over the next eight months. Suria said that investors should avoid Amazon debt at all costs and that the company had shown an “exceedingly high degree of ineptitude” in areas like distribution. The haymaker was this: “We believe that the company will run out of cash within the next four quarters, unless it manages to pull another financing rabbit out of its rather magical hat.”`

`For the next eight months, Ravi Suria continued to pummel Amazon with negative reports…those who felt the coming wave of changes threatened their businesses, their sense of the natural order, even their identities, were likely to embrace the sentiments of Suria and like-minded analysts and believe that Amazon.com was nothing more than a crazy dream built on an irrationally exuberant stock market.


- Like Elon’s epiphany that Tesla needed to be a leader in manufacturing, Bezos came to the conclusion rather later that distribution/fulfillment needed to be a core competency for Amazon.

Bezos and Wilke were asking themselves a fundamental question that seems surprising today. Should Amazon even be in the business of storing and distributing its products?...At the end of the day, Bezos Wilke and their colleagues reached a conclusion: the equipment and software from third-party vendors simply wasn’t designed for the task at hand…Amazon would have to rewrite all the software code. Instead of exiting the business of distribution, they had to reinvest in it. Over the next few years, “one by one, we unplugged our vendors’ modems and we watched as their jaws hit the floor. They couldn’t believe we were engineering our own solution.”

- Like Musk, Bezos is extremely demanding and hard to work for. Executive and management turnover was/is very high, probably higher than at Tesla.

Over the next year Amazon executives quit in droves... Some were tired and just wanted a change. Others felt Bezos didn’t listen to them and wasn’t about to start…The company reached incredible levels of attrition in 2002 and 2003…People left and afterward they took a breath and felt disoriented, like they had escaped a cult. Though they didn’t share it openly, many just couldn’t take working for Bezos any longer.

- Unions tried unsuccessfully to organize at Amazon, just like at Tesla.

Over the years, unions like the Teamsters and the United Food and Commercial Workers ried to organizew associates in Amazon’s U.S. FCs, passing out flyers in the parking lots and in some cases knocking on the dorrs of workers’ homes….”The number one thing standing in the way of Amazon unionization is fear.” Employees are “afraid they’ll fire you – even though it’s technically not legal.”


I’m not trying to say the Amazon and Tesla are equivalent. But I believe that to build a disruptive company, especially in a large, historically low margin business, you need a ruthless visionary tyrant who is willing to bet the company multiple times to reach the audacious goals that must be met in order to succeed. The result: management burnout and high turnover, many more non-believers than believers, attacks on many fronts by those you stand to lose from the disruption, etc. So this movie has been seen before, just not very often.
 
I am sure that if Elon Musk isn’t interested in buying a legacy automaker, it isn’t going to happen. I am also sure that, if he’s interested in buying a legacy automaker, he isn’t going to show it. So we can’t know what’s going to happen.

Right now, Tesla is worth $54.99 billion. With $2 billion in cash & annual production capacity of less than a million cars annually. That’s how much investors (mostly large institutions) value the leadership team, the business model, and the competitive advantages.

Now take that same company with $22 billion in cash and annual production capacity of more than 5 million cars annually. How much more is that company worth? Gone are all the short narratives of bankwuptcy, etc. Gone are the questions of how they’ll fund the Gigafactory, the China factory, Model Y production, etc. Gone are the questions about where they’ll build it.

Maybe I’m just dreaming. Or maybe “It will be next level. These are really big numbers.” We’ll see.

You problem is in understanding what Tesla is worth. No one will pay 60 billion for Tesla. To remain a bull you need to avoid this understanding.
 
I am sure that if Elon Musk isn’t interested in buying a legacy automaker, it isn’t going to happen. I am also sure that, if he’s interested in buying a legacy automaker, he isn’t going to show it.

Aside from being a very dumb idea how does Tesla acquire Ford or GM?

They don't have cash. GM has a market cap of $56B and Ford $43B.

Does Tesla take on massive debt at 8% to make a cash/stock offer?

Do they wait until they can raise the massive cash pile at say 5%?

If it is an all stock offer then it is really a merger not an acquisition then.

Now we have ICE investors who want to see quarterly dividends.

If Ford not only do we have Musk Family Trust as major stockholders but the Ford Family Trust as well.
 
Aside from being a very dumb idea how does Tesla acquire Ford or GM?

They don't have cash. GM has a market cap of $56B and Ford $43B.

Does Tesla take on massive debt at 8% to make a cash/stock offer?

Do they wait until they can raise the massive cash pile at say 5%?

If it is an all stock offer then it is really a merger not an acquisition then.

Now we have ICE investors who want to see quarterly dividends.

If Ford not only do we have Musk Family Trust as major stockholders but the Ford Family Trust as well.

It makes far more sense to follow some mix of the Ford/Amazon model. Open the Tesla energy platform to other manufacturers. It creates selection, strengthens the network effect, and unifies the transition to sustainable energy. Splintered platforms will not enable a faster transition. Tesla may not always sell the most cars, but what they sell should be very compelling and set the bar to strive for.
 
You problem is in understanding what Tesla is worth. No one will pay 60 billion for Tesla. To remain a bull you need to avoid this understanding.
Of course not. Regardless of the current market cap, hardly anyone (percentagewise) would be satisfied with selling it for such a low amount or even double that amount. And you can bet Elon wouldn't sell for any amount
 
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Aside from being a very dumb idea how does Tesla acquire Ford or GM?
...
If it is an all stock offer then it is really a merger not an acquisition then.

Now we have ICE investors who want to see quarterly dividends.

If Ford not only do we have Musk Family Trust as major stockholders but the Ford Family Trust as well.

Well, at least you didn’t tell me to stick it where it hurts.

All-stock merger. I don’t care what it’s called. Amazon-Whole Foods was called a merger. What matters is who’s in charge when the deal is done.

If ICE investors want dividends, they can sell. That’s what an acquisition premium is for. They can use the money to buy Daimler, which has a higher dividend.

Fiat Chrysler (30B) is the smallest & easiest to swallow, but probably the worst of the legacies. Ford (43B) depends entirely on the Ford Family realizing the predicament they’re in, and being fully on-board. Honda (52B) is very interesting, but I don’t know if they realize the predicament they’re in.

GM (56B) and BMW (62B) are too expensive right now, but we’ll see in 9 months.
 
Maybe Tesla should buy Ford’s car factories for expansion since they have given up this market segment in North America.

In other words, except for the mustang, Ford can no longer design, produce and sell a competitive car in the US. As for GM I guess someone needs to supply the rental car fleet.

And this is also why this comparison makes no sense. One company produces products people really want and the other is in retreat in the segment.
 
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I recently finished reading The Everything Store – Jeff Bezos and the Age of Amazon.” I didn’t know much about the history of Amazon so it was quite enlightening. While looking back it is easy to assume that Amazon’s great success was a foregone conclusion, nothing could be farther from the truth. There were many failures, crisis points, and near death experiences. Sounds like Tesla, right? In fact I was amazed at the number of similarities between what Tesla has gone/is going thru and the earlier days of Amazon. Here’s what I found, supported by some passages from the book.

- Amazon needed outside capital in order to fund its growth. While the bear narrative whenever a Tesla bull tries to compare the two companies is that Amazon grew only by investing cash flow from operations, that is not true.

To open new categories and build new warehouses, Amazon needed more than a plan; it needed additional capital. So that May [1998] the company raised $326 million in a junk-bond offering, and the following February, another $1.25 billion in what was at the time the largest convertible debt offering in history…In those highly carbonated years, from 1998 to early 2000, Amazon raised a breathtaking $2.2B in three separate bond offerings.

Note that Amazon’s revenues were only $2.8B in 2000, up from $600M in 1998.

- Amazon could have gone bankrupt during the dotcom crash.

In February [2000] Amazon sold $672 million in convertible bonds to overseas investors…Amazon was forced to offer a far more generous 6.9 percent interest rate and flexible conversion terms…Without that cushion, Amazon would almost certainly have faced the prospect of insolvency over the next year.

- Amazon’s financial situation was under attack by negative Wall Street analysts for a long time.

Working from Amazon’s latest quarterly earnings release, Suria [Lehman Brothers] analyzed the heavy losses of the previous holiday season and concluded that the company was in trouble, and in a widely disseminated research report, he predicted doom.

“From a bond perspective, we find the credit extremely weak and deteriorating,” he wrote in what would be the first of several scathing reports on Amazon over the next eight months. Suria said that investors should avoid Amazon debt at all costs and that the company had shown an “exceedingly high degree of ineptitude” in areas like distribution. The haymaker was this: “We believe that the company will run out of cash within the next four quarters, unless it manages to pull another financing rabbit out of its rather magical hat.”`

`For the next eight months, Ravi Suria continued to pummel Amazon with negative reports…those who felt the coming wave of changes threatened their businesses, their sense of the natural order, even their identities, were likely to embrace the sentiments of Suria and like-minded analysts and believe that Amazon.com was nothing more than a crazy dream built on an irrationally exuberant stock market.


- Like Elon’s epiphany that Tesla needed to be a leader in manufacturing, Bezos came to the conclusion rather later that distribution/fulfillment needed to be a core competency for Amazon.

Bezos and Wilke were asking themselves a fundamental question that seems surprising today. Should Amazon even be in the business of storing and distributing its products?...At the end of the day, Bezos Wilke and their colleagues reached a conclusion: the equipment and software from third-party vendors simply wasn’t designed for the task at hand…Amazon would have to rewrite all the software code. Instead of exiting the business of distribution, they had to reinvest in it. Over the next few years, “one by one, we unplugged our vendors’ modems and we watched as their jaws hit the floor. They couldn’t believe we were engineering our own solution.”

- Like Musk, Bezos is extremely demanding and hard to work for. Executive and management turnover was/is very high, probably higher than at Tesla.

Over the next year Amazon executives quit in droves... Some were tired and just wanted a change. Others felt Bezos didn’t listen to them and wasn’t about to start…The company reached incredible levels of attrition in 2002 and 2003…People left and afterward they took a breath and felt disoriented, like they had escaped a cult. Though they didn’t share it openly, many just couldn’t take working for Bezos any longer.

- Unions tried unsuccessfully to organize at Amazon, just like at Tesla.

Over the years, unions like the Teamsters and the United Food and Commercial Workers ried to organizew associates in Amazon’s U.S. FCs, passing out flyers in the parking lots and in some cases knocking on the dorrs of workers’ homes….”The number one thing standing in the way of Amazon unionization is fear.” Employees are “afraid they’ll fire you – even though it’s technically not legal.”


I’m not trying to say the Amazon and Tesla are equivalent. But I believe that to build a disruptive company, especially in a large, historically low margin business, you need a ruthless visionary tyrant who is willing to bet the company multiple times to reach the audacious goals that must be met in order to succeed. The result: management burnout and high turnover, many more non-believers than believers, attacks on many fronts by those you stand to lose from the disruption, etc. So this movie has been seen before, just not very often.

Outstanding post, thank you. Amazon or early Ford are the best comps for Tesla; huge CAGR, huge TAM, capital intensive, clear leadership.
 
tsla could consider sell $10B 10 year convertible notes at 3% interest with conversion price $2000. That would be maximum 5m shares and less than 3% dilution. But after that, no more capital infusion forever.

$10B can be used for building three new GF at US, China and europe at same time. The US one could be at a right-to-work state on rusty belt. The yearly production rate for M3+MY+semi at end of 2020 could be 3 million plus 20* current size of tesla energy.

Imagine this growth rate.
 
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