Ghost Braking Danger on Cruise Control

[Msjulie]

Supposedly whenever you override the cars decision(s) Tesla eng team is alerted so they can understand why. Maybe just FSD and not TACC, don't know for sure.

I keep my foot right on the throttle pedal so when my car starts to pull one of these tricks on me - hard braking cause whatever, rapid slowing because it thinks the speed limit changed, etc - I am ready to override it and prevent an unwelcome bop on the rear of the car from the impatient and bewildered folk behind me.

I would have hoped it would be better by now but I can't say that's true for my car. It also still wants to wander around lanes, especially (still!) when it can't understand that the right side line is moved/gone due to an incoming merge lane.

I keep using it but mostly just to give my foot a rest; it's not less stressful to let the car doing (some of) the driving, and often it is more so but I hope it's somehow training some AI net somewhere.

Caveat: maybe 'cause i2.5 hardware?

 

[ChrML]

The second time everything in my car was thrown into the front seat/windshield as i was going 80mph and I took over but was at 30mph by then as it happened so fast .. WTH is going on as I could have been killed and/or killed others.

Pro tip: Hit the gas pedal. You shouldn't let it drop that far.

On the other hand, it sucks, I know. My car slammed the brake 6 times in just 30 minute drive just the other day. Gotta pay attention all the time to override it. Hope they fix it with their new 3D labeling in a coming update.

 

[Knightshade]

Supposedly whenever you override the cars decision(s) Tesla eng team is alerted so they can understand why. Maybe just FSD and not TACC, don't know for sure.

Or...not at all.

This is mostly an urban legend per Greentheonly.


The nearest thing would be "disengagement" reports for when you disengage AP- but even then all it records is GPS coordinates, time, speed, heading, and method of disengagement (brake, stalk, or wheel).

Nothing about what the car "thought" you should do versus what the driver actually did, no video or pics, nothing like that collected or sent...and it sure doesn't "alert the engineering team" since with a fleet of like a million cars there'd be at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of such alerts every day.


Folks GROSSLY overestimate how fancy 'shadow mode' actually is.

 

[john5520]

I would have hoped it would be better by now but I can't say that's true for my car.

I'm pretty sure it's not your hardware. And while I'm excited for the re-write, I don't see why solving this speed limit issue should require a lot effort with the current software. It's as though it's being put on the back
burner when it should be a high priority.

 

[Fernand]

Now after 18 months with maybe 4 cases of ghost slowing, and certainly no braking, I just got HW3 but little chance to test it. I drive a lot in AP/NOA, relaxed and always ready to override, hardly ever need to. But you're scaring me now with these horror stories. Is it worse with HW3?

Maybe I should go back to the Service Center and ask for my old computer out of the junked parts bin, the way they used to give you your old leaky Primary PCV Recirculation Bypass Valve, that they had just replaced for the Mrs ($478.20). But maybe they donate them to some Kars For Kids type non-profit that makes educational computers, or boardwalk chess champion robots, out of them.
.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm pretty sure it's not your hardware. And while I'm excited for the re-write, I don't see why solving this speed limit issue should require a lot effort with the current software. It's as though it's being put on the back
burner when it should be a high priority.

As explained to you repeatedly, the speed limit issue has nothing to do with AP software at all

So there's no way to "solve" it by tweaking AP software.


But as you've been asked to multiple times now- please explain this "solve" that should not "require a lot of effort" that you imagine IS possible in the AP software.

How would it work- specifically?

 

[john5520]

As explained to you repeatedly, the speed limit issue has nothing to do with AP software at all

So there's no way to "solve" it by tweaking AP software.


But as you've been asked to multiple times now- please explain this "solve" that should not "require a lot of effort" that you imagine IS possible in the AP software.

How would it work- specifically?

You've got all the answers and everything works perfectly in your neck of woods. You should go work for Tesla. Help them with their mapping data or GPS. They need your kind of talent.

I'm not going to get into it with you again. Just ignore my posts.

 

[Knightshade]

You've got all the answers

And you have none, so we're a great pair


Seriously though- you keep insisting it's an AP problem and easily fixed- then when asked to explain that claim- you never can.

Weird huh?

(also weird the multiple posts after insisting you weren't gonna post about it anymore )

and everything works perfectly in your neck of woods.

Naah- I specifically mentioned some spots (local roads especially) where the speed limit data is wrong or even worse missing.... and that ideally reading signs in the rewrite should HELP -but nothing would ever be able to "100% always works fix"- such an issue.

Then I again asked if you had any idea of a system that would/could 100% always work and you again didn't have one but insisted it should be easy for someone else to do one.

 

[Darren Donovan]

Regardless of Tesla employing more advanced technology, my wife’s 2017 Honda phantom brakes far less than my 2019 Model 3. IMO, Tesla should have already figured out how to handle shadows from an overpass, but here we are, a couple years later, we have HW3, and I still have multiple incidents of false positives during my drive. Don’t even get me started on how poor the BSW system is compared to my wife’s Honda.

As another person said prior to your post, despite whatever "new" tech that Tesla is using, it can't even work uneventfully as his father's 2014 Mercedes, and this "new" tech is worse than your wife's Honda, yet we have people say that Tesla's tech is worlds apart from those manufacturers. Lol. The point about technology is for it to serve humans, reliably and safely. You don't embrace new tech for newness' sake. OTA is another issue with Tesla. Just as it's purported to fix or improve something, it's just as likely to introduce some other issue., and then we have to deal with the dreaded service centers.

 

[Fernand]

Software is either old and pretty stable, or new. New software is evolving. Vehicle autonomy is a work in progress. Clearly new. You get bugs, bug fixes, new issues - all the time.

Tesla does a good job IMHO. They put out the newest code for advanced test, roll it out gradually. It's been quite smooth for such complex code. If it's too stressful, it might be best to choose an older machine with more "mature" technology.

People who claim they know how it's best done, but don't do it for a living, generally have no idea. That's just how it is. If they were such experts, they would be earning good money doing it.

Nobody's having to "deal with the dreaded Service Centers" to fix bugs, they get worked out over time in updates delivered via OTA. Long term bugs that aren't quickly fixed aren't there because of neglect. It's because something is interacting with other features, and the solution isn't obvious.
.

 

[Msjulie]

Or...not at all.

Folks GROSSLY overestimate how fancy 'shadow mode' actually is.

I'm only repeating what I heard in Elon's talk (not him, one of the neural net guys) about their fancy software and HW3 updates

 

[Knightshade]

I'm only repeating what I heard in Elon's talk (not him, one of the neural net guys) about their fancy software and HW3 updates

Well, if you're curious, Green debunked a lot of the rumors about what it's actually collecting/doing in a thread over here:

https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1096322810694287361

 

[LACALawyer]

Cover your pedals when driving on autopilot.

 

[Matias]

but it’s a matter of time for the programmers to fix it.

Just be aware of it, and be careful.
It will eventually get taken care of.

It’s the downfall of absolutely new tech.

AP 2 was introduced in october 2016. Phantom braking has been a problem since then.

I don’t know, if this “absolutely new tech” is still a good explanation after almost four years.

 

[M109Rider]

AP 2 was introduced in october 2016. Phantom braking has been a problem since then.

I don’t know, if this “absolutely new tech” is still a good explanation after almost four years.

Well, how many companies currently have Full Self Driving on all roads in multiple countries. ?
I think at present, the answer is none.
That would make this new tech wouldn’t it?

This on going programming effort isn’t like building an APP for checking stocks.
It’s software that works with a car to drive itself under many different conditions.

We all want it perfected, and done. I’m sure Tesla software engineers do also.
Different aspects are more difficult than others.

I guess it boils down to taking a reasonable look at expectations.

 

[Knightshade]

AP 2 was introduced in october 2016. Phantom braking has been a problem since then.

I don’t know, if this “absolutely new tech” is still a good explanation after almost four years.

This is not a tesla problem at all.

EVERYBODY with some form of radar cruise experiences this.

Google phantom braking BRAND with whatever brand you want and you'll find endless folks bitching about it.

Some have even had to do recalls for really bad examples.

Phantom Braking Leads to Mazda 3 Recall - The Truth About Cars

 

[john5520]

I guess it boils down to taking a reasonable look at expectations.

Under most circumstances, I'd agree. However, having it brake on the freeway in the manner that it does at times, can lead to a serious accident. Now, I'm less inclined to trust it
on the freeway verses the city. It used to be the other way around. City driving has improved quite a bit and any braking is more manageable at the
lower speeds.

There's no doubt the tech is impressive and will improve, but instead of fixing Backgammon and the look of the wheels on the avatar, put some more effort into finding
a solution to the braking issues people are having. It's a safety problem.

 

[Knightshade]

Under most circumstances, I'd agree. However, having it brake on the freeway in the manner that it does at times, can lead to a serious accident.

I've heard folks say this for years.... and never seen a single owner report it actually causing one.

The one time someone actually drove with an accelerometer to test how "hard" this braking actually it, it was like 0.2g....which isn't very hard at all though it can feel that way to a human in the car.

It's a safety problem.

Then surely you can show lots of examples of it causing accidents, right?

 

[nayr14]

I'm surprised we haven't seen more movement on a fix for the phantom braking (not navigation data speed limit discrepancies). Instead, they are pushing hard on FSD features. That speaks volumes...

My guess is that they would need to re-engineer how TACC functions with camera input, and for some reason they aren't willing to commit to doing so.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm surprised we haven't seen more movement on a fix for the phantom braking (not navigation data speed limit discrepancies). Instead, they are pushing hard on FSD features. That speaks volumes...

My guess is that they would need to re-engineer how TACC functions with camera input, and for some reason they aren't willing to commit to doing so.

They're re-engineering the entire system right now. It's likely to improve this issue as well as a bunch of others (though it'll be interesting to see if it only improves them for HW3 owners, which seems likely)- last word was 2-4 months before public release of the re-write.


The folks who keep thinking there was some easy fix for this with the existing system- despite literally every car maker that uses radar cruise of some kind having similar problems (and usually a less advanced system too), with none having a fix, are simply wrong.