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Has there been any clarification on Supercharger throttling...

Discussion in 'Model S' started by zambono, Jul 25, 2017.

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  1. zambono

    zambono Member

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    I have a 90D and I use the Superchargers once in a while, based on my experience the 45 minutes at superchargers is one of the negatives at the top of the list. My next electric vehicle will need to do sub 20 minutes. anyhow any clarification on that counter.

    • Is there a time limit one must charge to get counted
    • Does it count regardless of initial battery charge
    • Does it have to pass a certain charge rate to get counter
    thanks
     
    • Like x 1
  2. 0ptions

    0ptions Member

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    Supercharging

    I am not Supercharging as quickly as I expected. What could be happening?

    Your vehicle and the Superchargers communicate to select the appropriate charging rate for your car. Supercharging rate may vary due to battery charge level, current use of the Supercharger station and extreme climate conditions. Your vehicle charges faster when the battery is at a lower state of charge and charging slows down as it fills up. Depending on your destination, charging to completely full is often not necessary.

    Does Supercharging affect my battery?
    The peak-charging rate of the battery may decrease slightly after a large number of high-rate charging sessions, such as those at Superchargers. To ensure maximum driving range and battery safety, the battery charge rate is decreased when the battery is too cold, when it is nearly full or when its condition changes with usage and age. These changes in the condition of the battery may increase total Supercharger time by a few minutes over time.


    How can I maximize power and reduce charge time at a Supercharger?
    Each charge post is labeled with a number and letter, either A or B (e.g. 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B). When possible, select a charge post with a unique number that is not currently connected to a vehicle. When a unique number isn’t available, the Supercharger cabinet has technology to share available power between charge posts A and B. To maximize power, park at a Supercharger shared with a car that is nearly done charging.

    How do I know if my car has surpassed the free Supercharging credits?
    To check your vehicle’s Supercharger credit status, please view your MyTesla account or contact Tech Support at (877) 798-3752 (international phone numbers).
     
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  3. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Weee!

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    #3 JohnnyG, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    @0ptions - While that's really good information, it's not quite what @zambono was talking about. There is a known restriction that has been implemented on the 90kWh battery. It occurs after too much fast-DC charging. The question resides around what the criteria is for engaging this restriction. We haven't seen any details to outline exactly how to avoid it, other than to restrict the amount of fast-DC charging on a whole.
     
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  4. zambono

    zambono Member

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    Thank you but I am aware of all the variables when one supercharges, I am more interested about the counter that was found a couple months back that would limit supercharging rates for some. That is not documented by Tesla
     
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  5. 0ptions

    0ptions Member

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    Can you please link to info on this "counter"? I guess I didn't know the context of your post. Sorry :)
     
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  6. jareade

    jareade Supporting Member

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    Looks like Tesla is acknowledging the "counter" above. I hadn't seen that in the Q&A before. We just need to know what constitutes "a large number of high-rate charging sessions." We know from this thread (If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging) that around 300 charges triggered it for @Naonak. I'm not aware of anyone with better data.
     
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  7. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    No one outside Tesla knows for sure what the answers to your questions are. But hopefully you will get some responses with estimates, like the "around 300 charges".

    This issue is likely to only effect owners who use a Supercharger multiple times a week. It is always preferable to charge at home or at work if possible. But some owners do not have that choice.

    This advice from Tesla is well intended but not particularly helpful, since when you are at a Supercharger the only way to tell the charge status of another car that is plugged in is to ask the owner. Often the owners are not present.
     
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  8. zambono

    zambono Member

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    Thanks, I am trying to get more detail. For example if I supercharge and my battery is at 50% thus having a lower rate would that count against me? things like that
     
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  9. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    For questions like that, any responses you receive here will be -- in my opinion -- just speculation.

    My advice is, use the Superchargers only when you must and have no alternatives that can meet your needs. I would not charge a Tesla multiple times a week at Superchargers for several years. If you do, you may have greater than "normal" battery degradation. Maybe. I am only guessing.
     
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  10. apacheguy

    apacheguy S Sig #255

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    I recall an owner reporting fewer than 100 DCFC and he was hit with the throttling.
     
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  11. 0ptions

    0ptions Member

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    I think it's meant as, don't pull up to/begin using a charger at the same time as someone else. Pull up to a charger when the adjacent vehicle looks stale or you can tell if they're leaving soon (back at their car and getting into it).
     
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  12. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Weee!

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    Let's not forget... Superchargers are not the only DC-Fast Chargers. CHAdeMO is also considered a DC-Fast Charger, and I believe was confirmed to count against you as well. @zambono 's concerns / questions are warranted, as not all situations and environments are hard on the batteries, so the question remains... what criteria are they using to count towards permanently capping the max charging rate?

    For an example; CHAdeMO is capable of charging at 50kW, yet the one by my home is throttled to 13kW. That's approximately the same rate as a refreshed MS standard home charger (11.5kW). I shouldn't be penalized for using this slow DCFC, and maybe I'm not, but we just don't know because nothing is published. A pre-refresh MS with the upgraded dual chargers can charge at 19.2kW at home in your garage. This brings us back to... what criteria are they using to count towards permanently capping the max charging rate?

    We may never know..... :confused:
     
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  13. zambono

    zambono Member

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    My point, you nailed it.
     
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  14. Naonak

    Naonak Member

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    The answers to some of the questions in this thread:

    • The throttling happens with < 250 DCFC sessions. How much less, nobody knows (yet).
    • Any DCFC counts towards your session, regardless of charge rate. I have very few Supercharger sessions (about 60) and more than 200 CHADeMO sessions.
    • The current speculation is that it's the amount of kWH that have been fast charged, so the actual number of sessions or the rate don't affect it. This is mostly confirmed from the service techs and upper management, but they have been known to be wrong in the past. I would say this is an 85% probability of being true, as it makes the most sense really. What doesn't make sense is slow CHADeMO sessions, say at 25 or 30 kW that count, even though you can reach close to 30 on AC with a HPWC. Why is that any different? The algorithm appears to be pretty dumb, and it just counts any DC-DC charging as fast charging, regardless of rate. I pity the poor bastards that put CHADeMO in their garage.
    • Contrary to Teslas claim that it only adds a few minutes to a Supercharging session, it can add a significant amount of time to long drives. Even if each session only added 5 minutes, that's an additional 30 minutes wasted over the course of a mere 600 mile drive. That is not insignificant, especially for Superchargers in the Midwest that are, quite literally, out in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do but twiddle your thumbs while you charge.
    • Nobody knows where the lower limit on throttling is. My experience seems to be that it's a step down algorithm, where as the kWH goes up, the throttling increases as well. I am making an identical (same time of year, same start/destination, etc...) ~700 mile trip next month that I took last year before the throttling, so we'll know exactly how much throttling I currently have on my battery after that. I think it will prove to be enlightening.
    • Lastly, this issue will eventually affect most, if not all, 90 pack owners. ~200ish fast charges are not a lot of fast charges assuming a moderate amount of energy transferred. Even casual Supercharger users could hit that in 5 or 6 years, which means they will be throttled at some point. There is a fast charge counter internal to Tesla that can be accessed, but it's not exposed to the public apparently.
     
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  15. pdxrajiv

    pdxrajiv Member

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    What kind of logging are people using to keep track of charging sessions, rates, and the known factors that affect charging rates?
    I presume VisibleTesla can log SOC and rate during charging session, but it probably could not keep track of battery temp or ambient temp, whether the SC session was shared or not and the SOC of the paired car, let alone the quality of electricity supply available to the SC station or any functional issues that keep a charger from operating at peak.

    FWIW, I don't think I have observed any SC throttling for my car. I have driven ~24K on the SC network. I would estimate ~150 SC charging sessions. The slowdowns I have experienced appear to be related to initial high state of charge, local electricity supply (Beaver? Buttonwillow?) or ambient or battery temperature (charging wand too hot to handle in each case).
    But knowing how the human brain works (confirmation bias and all), I would not trust my memory or intuition and would prefer hard data for reliable conclusions.

    I wonder if any of the leaders on the Most Superchargers Visited list could shed light on this topic by sharing their experience, one way or another.
     
  16. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    How do you figure that? Even if you drove the "mere" 600 miles in one day, which most people wouldn't, if you stopped at 5 superchargers along the way you wouldn't be starting at a low enough state of charge each time for your peak rate to be decreased resulting in the 5 minute delay. So those 5 supercharging sessions wouldn't give you a 25 min (not 30) delay. If you supercharged less often and started each one with a lower SOC to encounter the 5 min delay, that might be 3 or 4 stops (15 or 20 min. longer total over 600 mile trip). Hardly worth getting worked up about. If you stayed overnight on the way you would be starting at 100% charge again and have even fewer timed supercharging stops.
     
  17. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    There are Tesla's with with 200+K miles that have mostly supercharged and are still charging fine and have had very little range reduction.

    If you're on a trip, charge only enough to get to your next supercharger so you pull in with as little as possible target 10% as your arrival SOC so you have buffer against unexpected stuff. If it's raining or going to rain or you know about a headwind, allow more buffer.

    The lower you are when you pull up, the longer you'll charge at maximum before hitting the taper.

    Also, I always call Tesla right before arriving so they can tell me which stalls to avoid. There are almost always stacks or stalls that have issues and they're always helpful in telling me which ones to avoid.

    18777983752,,,2,,1

    The commas and extra numbers navigate through the correct call tree. Put that in your phone and dial by name :)

    FYI, my P85D is in for a cooling system repair as that was the cause of my slow supercharging.

    The 90 kWh battery limit when reached should only increase your charging session at most 5 minutes.
     
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  18. Naonak

    Naonak Member

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    That is just patently false and it is specifically why I noticed there was an issue to begin with. It is, literally, the reason we now know there is a throttle on 90 packs. So your assertion that "you wouldn't be starting at a lower enough state of charge each time for your peak rate to be decreased" is flat-out incorrect. And this was on a 300 mile trip with only 3 stops.

    It really irritates me when people in Supercharger dense areas think the whole country is like that. The reality of the Supercharger network is the vast majority of it (geographically) is spaced in the most inconvenient way possible for larger battery packs. This is, I assume, to service the lower energy packs. So throughout most of the country (again, geographically), Superchargers are spaced about every 100ish miles (between 100 and 130). This means you can't skip a Supercharger, but you must stop at every charger along the way. As it turns out, this actually isn't quite as bad an issue if you have a lead foot, because you can increase your speed (and thus arrive faster) to arrive at a lower SOC. Or alternately, if you don't want to drive above the speed limit, you can just charge less... in either case, though, you are right in the peak charge zone virtually the entire time you are charging - meaning the throttle hits the hardest throughout most of the country (geographically) for 90 packs.

    Speculation aside, we will have hard data on how much time throttling adds to a 600 mile trip (5 Superchargers) in the next couple weeks. I will actually make a concerted effort to arrive at the same SOC at each charger as the previous trip prior to throttling.

    As far as "staying overnight" on the way - why on earth would I stay overnight on the way on a 600 mile trip? That makes no sense at all. Do you stay in a hotel when your house is nearby? But even using your numbers, 15 or 20 minutes of additional time, on top of the already long charging time is maddening. If there were something to do, maybe... but there isn't anything to do, nothing to walk to, and you can only eat so much every 100 miles.
     
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  19. apacheguy

    apacheguy S Sig #255

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    Not sure I follow. Tesla's taper algo has trained most of us to ride the bottom 50% on trips. Granted, I usually start out with a full charge, but I drive more on the first leg and do shorter trips from there on.
     
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  20. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    I'd say bottom 50% is exaggerating, at least from what I've seen on the 90D/100D packs I've used. You get pretty high charge rates until at least 70-80% SOC at which point it sharply drops (e.g. like exponential decay with a 1-2 minute time constant).

    I think you can ride the bottom 70% of the pack conservatively. Last trip I was at a 200RM state of charge on my 100D and was still pulling 95kW while eating.
     
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