Have you lost faith in Tesla?

[Doudeau]

I was referring to things like the heat pump arrived, then the heated steering wheel didn’t seem to change on the same date, and the SR+/RWD didn’t get it at first, then the MCU changed to Raven, the low volt battery changed, the radar went, the interior camera had infrared lighting applied at some point, the motors changed to hairpin windings, the battery size grew on some models, the MY had a rear parcel shelf added, the suspension may (or may not have been tweaked), the lights became LED, the glazing became laminated, it’s these changes to the spec I’m thinking off. (I probably have them out of chronological order, but that’s what 10-12 changes to the models, not all at the same time over the last 18 months or so.

I appreciate you’re more of a car expert than me but isn’t this also somewhat true with other manufacturers whilst also having a matrix of optional extras available at purchase. I know when the Merc I had many years ago had it’s wing mirror and rear lights smashed they were very specific replacement parts as it had to be an E class elegance wing mirror and rear light cluster with the specific wiring loom connectors that weren’t even consistent on the W211 generation of the estate model. Lots of W211 lights and wing mirrors available on eBay but none fitted my car - it cost £800 for the wing mirror from merc.

 

[boombap]

I was referring to things like the heat pump arrived, then the heated steering wheel didn’t seem to change on the same date, and the SR+/RWD didn’t get it at first, then the MCU changed to Rzyen, the low volt battery changed, the radar went, the interior camera had infrared lighting applied at some point, the motors changed to hairpin windings, the battery size grew on some models, the MY had a rear parcel shelf added, the suspension may (or may not have been tweaked), the lights became matrix led, the glazing became laminated, the parking sensors.. it’s these changes to the spec I’m thinking off. (I probably have them out of chronological order, but that’s what 10-12 changes to the models, not all at the same time over the last 18 months or so.

So would you rather Tesla sat on all those changes for up to a year at a time, knowingly shipping worse cars than they could build instead of taking the agile hardware approach to shipping the best version of the car they can sell at any one time?

 

[Mullermn]

So would you rather Tesla sat on all those changes for up to a year at a time, knowingly shipping worse cars than they could build instead of taking the agile hardware approach to shipping the best version of the car they can sell at any one time?

The interesting thing about this for me is what it does to the second hand car market. How do you compare two Tesla’s without a complete DNA breakdown of which components each happened to receive?

How do you even find out which component is better than the other years after they were introduced and the internet buzz has died down?

Someone in 2028 buying a ~6 year old model y is going to be picking from a pool of subtle variations (suspension improvement etc) and may not even know about it.

 

[boombap]

The interesting thing about this for me is what it does to the second hand car market. How do you compare two Tesla’s without a complete DNA breakdown of which components each happened to receive?

How do you even find out which component is better than the other years after they were introduced and the internet buzz has died down?

Someone in 2028 buying a ~6 year old model y is going to be picking from a pool of subtle variations (suspension improvement etc) and may not even know about it.

True, but not sure it matters all that much.

If you test drive the thing and it works for you, would the fact it didn’t have the upgraded “comfort” suspension be something you’d notice having never tried the newer one?

I honestly don’t even know what suspension version is in the MYP I just picked up, especially being the new suspension if I recall correctly was announced in a tweet which referred to it now shipping from Austin/Berlin and I haven’t personally seen a follow up to say it made it to Shanghai yet. I do know it rides better than my 2020 M3LR so I assume so, maybe?

 

[MashinBenzin]

True, but not sure it matters all that much.

If you test drive the thing and it works for you, would the fact it didn’t have the upgraded “comfort” suspension be something you’d notice having never tried the newer one?

I honestly don’t even know what suspension version is in the MYP I just picked up, especially being the new suspension if I recall correctly was announced in a tweet which referred to it now shipping from Austin/Berlin and I haven’t personally seen a follow up to say it made it to Shanghai yet. I do know it rides better than my 2020 M3LR so I assume so, maybe?

You may also be keen on having a Ryzen car, though, or something like that. Second hand buyers are always scouring the market for cars with particular options. Travelling to see a car that doesn’t have what you expected is frustrating. Whereas it’s easy to look at something like a Merc or a BMW and know that’s the facelift, and hence comes with xyz.

 

[yessuz]

I appreciate you’re more of a car expert than me but isn’t this also somewhat true with other manufacturers whilst also having a matrix of optional extras available at purchase. I know when the Merc I had many years ago had it’s wing mirror and rear lights smashed they were very specific replacement parts as it had to be an E class elegance wing mirror and rear light cluster with the specific wiring loom connectors that weren’t even consistent on the W211 generation of the estate model. Lots of W211 lights and wing mirrors available on eBay but none fitted my car - it cost £800 for the wing mirror from merc.

No, not really

You will have optional extras, but facelift models are renewed specific year, and for example specific facelift available since xx year.

O tesla the change haopens at whatever moment and 2022 model received in march will have different stuff vs another 2022 model received in September but both model will be called 2022 model

 

[losvedir]

They still haven’t actually removed the mobile connector, I got a new one with my new car on the 22nd December so that’s plain false.

My Model 3 which I took delivery of on the 26th did not come with one, fwiw.

 

[DaveW]

My Model 3 which I took delivery of on the 26th did not come with one, fwiw.

UK / Europe thread - we still get them for whatever reason, guess we must use them more than users in America?

 

[Sean.]

Porsche quote silly money for service packs for a Taycan - when there must be next to no serviceable parts in it (like any EV). Porsche owners might be accepting of that, along with "Turbo" badges that make no sense, but at least Tesla is refreshingly honest with their advice that you basically don't need formal service intervals.

As someone with a foot in both camps now, I was fairly surprised to recently discover that Tesla hourly service rates (£165+VAT) are 10% more than Porsche (£150+VAT) hourly rates. That obviously doesn’t paint the complete picture, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

So I had a look back at my 1st Tesla service back in March 2019 at a smidge under 14,000 miles and 15 months - total was £469.80. This was back in the day when Tesla regimented an ‘annual’ service interval - 12 months / 12,500 miles (20,000 km) on a Model X. Included as follows:
- service inspection, various
- key battery
- cabin air filter
- coolant replacement
- wiper blade replacement
- firmware updates etc. yes even with OTA

Porsche Taycan service is based on 24 months / 20,000 miles. Includes as follows:
- service inspection
- dust/pollen filter replacement
- brake fluid replacement
- roof rail (where fitted) drain tubes and door drains, inspect/clear

Costs for Taycan 1st service very by dealer - admittedly by some margin; some as low as £290 all in (Porsche Colchester) and other dealers as high as £780 odd. The price on the continent and Ireland is around €350. It pays to shop around.

I know Tesla have now changed their service regime, especially with 3 and Y - but this was a comparison based on roughly equivalent upper price point cars at the same stage of their model introduction lifecycle.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere I’ve had my fair share of ex-warranty repairs on the Tesla. Luckily nothing battery, or drivetrain related but I’ve had in no particular order;
- chrome/brightwork replaced
- both front door opener actuator/pushers
- front trunk release mechanism
- several falcon wing door latch covers
- a rear light cluster, water ingress
- left and right upper control arms
- a heater matrix
- screen border yellowing UV correction
- some other stuff too boring to list

I’ve also put my hand in my pocket to replace the infotainment system and by dint of going from EAP to FSD the AP 3.0 hardware upgrade, around £1,900. EAP was a £6,500 option new and FSD via app upgrade was around £2,200 in 2020. In hindsight particularly poor value for both EAP and FSD.

Sooo not necessarily a given that Tesla = cheap and Porsche = expensive

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

So would you rather Tesla sat on all those changes for up to a year at a time, knowingly shipping worse cars than they could build instead of taking the agile hardware approach to shipping the best version of the car they can sell at any one time?

I’d prefer they finished designing the car before they started selling it, like I wish they’d finish writing software before they ship it. In fairness, if they have a breakthrough then introducing it is great, but the random timing feels like things get changed when the part bin runs out. Manufacturers usualky understands the discipline in managing the car as a whole as you can get unintended consequences from wierd interoperability problems if you don’t. When tesla changed the low voltage battery they had a problem with LFP battery cars bricking themselves because of the way the main battery kept the low voltage battery charged up. There’s almost certainly been other issues less dramatic and hard to explain. We see software updates having many subversion releases to cater for some strange combo of hardware and software not working. Fir all we know those who struggle with the wipers is because Tesla started using a different windscreen glass or wiper blade or even washer fluid.

 

[losvedir]

UK / Europe thread - we still get them for whatever reason, guess we must use them more than users in America?

Oops, serves me right for randomly refreshing the "New" page. I didn't realize that was different between regions, though. Interesting! Maybe there's more returning customers who already have one over here.

 

[boombap]

I’d prefer they finished designing the car before they started selling it, like I wish they’d finish writing software before they ship it. In fairness, if they have a breakthrough then introducing it is great, but the random timing feels like things get changed when the part bin runs out. Manufacturers usualky understands the discipline in managing the car as a whole as you can get unintended consequences from wierd interoperability problems if you don’t. When tesla changed the low voltage battery they had a problem with LFP battery cars bricking themselves because of the way the main battery kept the low voltage battery charged up. There’s almost certainly been other issues less dramatic and hard to explain. We see software updates having many subversion releases to cater for some strange combo of hardware and software not working. Fir all we know those who struggle with the wipers is because Tesla started using a different windscreen glass or wiper blade or even washer fluid.

I think this is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how Tesla builds things and tied to the old school mindset of how companies built things in the past.

Tesla builds its vehicles like most companies build software. Lean design and agile approaches to development. Design and ship the minimum viable product (though their MVP was light years ahead of the competition) then the iterate. Continuously.

If an engineer on the production line notices something that can be improved they’re empowered to try and make it work. That’s how we got 250kWh supercharging, for example. If it does work and they can scale it, then it starts shipping immediately. The vehicle is never finished like software is never finished. There will be some unforeseen bugs along the way, just like software, thats also ok. Move fast, break things, then fix them just as fast. It results in better product.

But your point about software is why removing complexity like USS is also a net good thing in the long run, I actually had totally forgotten that I had that issue where my USS stopped working after an update and a mobile service tech had to switch the controller out to fix it. But if they do remove them then people wail about that too, so they can’t win.

 

[doats1]

I think this is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how Tesla builds things and tied to the old school mindset of how companies built things in the past.

Tesla builds its vehicles like most companies build software. Lean design and agile approaches to development. Design and ship the minimum viable product (though their MVP was light years ahead of the competition) then the iterate. Continuously.

Surely you don't think you're the first person on this forum to identify Tesla's use of lean and agile?

A car is not a piece of software, and removing features then stating that it will be reintroduced in a unspecified timeframe is not how agile works.

 

[Sean.]

The vehicle is never finished like software is never finished.

Explains everything. Thank you! I was wondering what was up with the car all these years. It's just unfinished.

 

[LiamPope]

Great! Next time the Mrs complains the house is never finished, I'll just tell her it's an agile renovation.

Then keep changing the colour of the WC and never get to the difficult bits like the kitchen.

 

[boombap]

Surely you don't think you're the first person on this forum to identify Tesla's use of lean and agile?

A car is not a piece of software, and removing features then stating that it will be reintroduced in an unspecified timeframe is not how agile works.

I don’t.
but then I work in tech building software for companies who are agile, maybe I just get it and enjoy the changes because this is normal to me, where the same things infuriate others.

 

[MrBadger]

I don’t.
but then I work in tech building software for companies who are agile, maybe I just get it and enjoy the changes because this is normal to me, where the same things infuriate others.

In which case you will know that one of the 12 principles of agile development is that "working software is the primary measure of progress" and that changing software should be to the customers advantage. Oh, and to deliver working software... Its very much misunderstood that the iterative process is to fix broken things, its not. The primary aim is working software/product features, or at least software/features that have fulfilled the definition of done. IMHO, for a safety system such as those in vehicles, the DoD should be pretty tight.
I guess there is an argument that the customer in this case is not the end purchaser and that everything is done for Tesla's own benefit.
But I think that arguing the last two points would mean that Tesla's approach for done is very lax (not sure I would want to admit that) and that they don't care a toss about the end user (nor admit that either).

 

[boombap]

In which case you will know that one of the 12 principles of agile development is that "working software is the primary measure of progress" and that changing software should be to the customers advantage. Oh, and to deliver working software...

I do.

And I also know from experience that expecting zero bugs is entirely unrealistic, no matter how much test automation you write, it only captures the things that you think might go wrong and test for and you always miss something, which is why every single software and hardware manufacture screws up sometimes. Every single one has bug fix updates. Even those who aren’t agile.

Remember the time Intel shipped a bunch of chips with a floating point math error so minor the average user wouldn’t encounter it in 27,000 years of use, but the resulting media storm caused a half billion recall and write-off?

Bugs happen.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

So Tesla can ship buggy software and incomplete features because intel once shipped a processor with a fault the average person would take 27k years to encounter? No one says bugs can’t happen, but many complex permutations of hardware make it near impossible to regression test anything fully, and that’s going to make for an interesting conversation with regulators when they want self driving accreditation. There are simply too many unintended consequences in releases.

A major misconception of applying lean to automotive (or any situation) is the degree to which you’re dependent on hardware and sensors. This isn’t some boundless cloud based processing utopia where the only UI is a screen and the inputs are a keyboard. Commit to hardware choices to early and you’re living with one arm tied behind your back. Autopilot is the classic example, 3 processor version, 2 camera versions, radar they couldn’t get to work, no low power mode so sentry is so inefficient, pixel peeping because the resolution and EV range is too narrow, no sensor cleaning, some but not all cars now have sensor heating etc. Those choices are increasingly driving decisions with a lot of focus trying to work around those limitations.

 

[MrBadger]

Remember the time Intel shipped a bunch of chips with a floating point math error so minor the average user wouldn’t encounter it in 27,000 years of use, but the resulting media storm caused a half billion recall and write-off?

Hardly a comparison. Many of the Tesla bugs are obvious issues that would be encountered in 27,000ms had even the slightest bit of relevant test coverage been tested. You see that time and time again that within a few hours of a new release its followed up by a whole hoard of reports of issues, especially true for non US regions. I've no idea what/who/if tests functionality for real world scenarios, but even common scenarios its inadequate. If a whole host of real users can encounter bugs so soon after a release, then they should have been found before release.