Have you lost faith in Tesla?

[MashinBenzin]

I seem to have spent a lot of money just to be a troll.

Would love to see a non-celebrity CEO - apparently awaiting his Kanye moment currently. No more BS pie-in-the-sky product announcements (eg. Cybertruck, the robot thing, FSD), focus on making the cars nicer to drive, continuously improving them (instead of cutting basic features), release an actual cheaper car for the masses like they've been announcing for years, etc. The basics are there, an excellent super efficient drivetrain, there's enough hardware to make currently broken/poorly implemented/missing features actually work if they changed focus, but continue to waste effort on things that'll likely never reach usefulness in the local market on the current hardware.

You know, be a sensible car company instead of a BS factory to inflate the stock price.

Frankly I doubt I will buy another Tesla and buying one in the first place was a compromise. If the car market wasn't insane with supply chain issues and price inflation I'd have gone another brand. When I get an itching to replace the car in the next 5-10 years I suspect the market will be flooded with cheap Chinese brands that do everything just good enough - I'm sure they know they can't really compete which is why they keep talking up future tech, that in all likelihood will wind up owned by some other company down the line anyway.

The next few years will be interesting. The first mover advantage is over and (I suspect) that most of those that are won over by the brand/BS PR are already in one.

The way I see it (in line with your last paragraph):
- the lower end of the market will be flooded with Chinese brands making great, well equipped cars and lower end Korean/European/Japanese cars.
- the mid range (call it £45-70k in today’s money) will have massively compelling offerings from Korea, Europe and Japan (probably in that order)
- the premium market will have a lot more from Porsche (Macan and Cayenne EVs), BMW, Mercedes etc.

To maintain current volume in that market, never mind increase, it’s clear to me that Tesla need vastly improved products and there is just zero sign of that coming. I look at something like the new e-Niro and I think that’s already a more desirable product than a M3/MY at much lower prices. So if you don’t need the space, why would you buy the Tesla?

 

[MrBadger]

So I think a healthy dose of reality, maybe contrition that they've got things wrong at times, and a believable roadmap and prioritisation over features would go a long way to aleviating some of the frustrations. I'm not sure which is worse, something like the windscreen wiper performance or the belief by Tesla that its actually fine. Admitting that in some conditions they suck might make us feel like we're being listened to,

This ^

If only Tesla acknowledged that there were problems with some things (in all areas eg functionality, quality, service, schedules etc) and that they were going to sort things would go a long way.

Unfortunately we seem to be increasingly in a world where admitting that things are wrong is a forbidden negative which prevents learning from mistakes and experiences to make things better.

I’m sure that pretty much everyone (well UK members that own, are buying or wanting to buy) on here want Tesla to succeed and are not haters but some may have had a negative experience that came across bad or may not have expected and simply want it put right. If it could be admitted that things were wrong, then they could be addressed which would make things better for all and the acknowledgment would I am sure change a few perceptions.

If the binary fanboy/hater thinking (especially by those with a more vested interest in the brand) and mind reading/name calling of others perceptions was eradicated then addressing real issues would be much easier and beneficial to us all.

 

[yessuz]

I’m sure that pretty much everyone (well UK members that own, are buying or wanting to buy) on here want Tesla to succeed and are not haters but some may have had a negative experience that came across bad or may not have expected and simply want it put right. If it could be admitted that things were wrong, then they could be addressed which would make things better for all and the acknowledgment would I am sure change a few perceptions.

although I may sound negative, but I am probably in this position as well.
I own one, I want it to succeed, but at the same time I see the problems (the interior quality and rattles my 50k+ car has after 20k miles is just mind boggling) and I have enough experience with other cars just to be able to compare the "advanced tech" of tesla vs others, especially including the AP and it's performance.

that is why I might be losing/lost faith - tesla never admits that issue persists. was mentioned - we already paid cash for a car. each and every service is just a cost for them which reduces the profit.

at the same time market wakes up for the nonsense and realizes that tesla is just another car company and it cannot be valued as other 10 large manufacturers like WV, Toyota etc combined, because this just makes no sense. Therefore share price and market capitalization comes back to reality

 

[Durzel]

The next few years will be interesting. The first mover advantage is over and (I suspect) that most of those that are won over by the brand/BS PR are already in one.

The way I see it (in line with your last paragraph):
- the lower end of the market will be flooded with Chinese brands making great, well equipped cars and lower end Korean/European/Japanese cars.
- the mid range (call it £45-70k in today’s money) will have massively compelling offerings from Korea, Europe and Japan (probably in that order)
- the premium market will have a lot more from Porsche (Macan and Cayenne EVs), BMW, Mercedes etc.

To maintain current volume in that market, never mind increase, it’s clear to me that Tesla need vastly improved products and there is just zero sign of that coming. I look at something like the new e-Niro and I think that’s already a more desirable product than a M3/MY at much lower prices. So if you don’t need the space, why would you buy the Tesla?

If the rumours about the next M3 refresh being orientated towards consolidation of parts, rather than delivering a significant uplift in specification, I suspect what you're saying might come to pass.

Tesla have a great charging network which will always be a USP (so long as they don't open it all up), but ~95% of journeys are short range so I wonder how many typical M3/MY owners really need it.

The mobile service is likewise really good, but there's nothing stopping other manufacturers adopting this quite easily.

To my mind the things that Tesla have got going for them are battery and motor efficiency. They are still noticeably better than the competition in that area. That advantage won't last indefinitely. In pretty much every other department they are worse, in my opinion. I love the minimalist interior, but overall it is nowhere near the standard in terms of materials, etc you get in the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc, or even cheaper stuff. My £60k car has noticeably more wind noise at speed than a £30k MG4.

What I think Tesla have got going for it over its competitors is the attitude to software, and servicing. Their operating costs much be substantially lower than traditional manufacturers with big glass fronted dealerships, and we already know that their vertical integration means they have the highest margins per car of any manufacturer. Traditional manufacturers still want to maintain the post-sale servicing racket, Porsche quote silly money for service packs for a Taycan - when there must be next to no serviceable parts in it (like any EV). Porsche owners might be accepting of that, along with "Turbo" badges that make no sense, but at least Tesla is refreshingly honest with their advice that you basically don't need formal service intervals.

I'm a nerd so I enjoy the OTA software updates (not so much the endless "fart" content though), etc. I don't know how much of the market that really is though. You could make an argument that other manufacturers deliver cars with functionality that doesn't need constant bugfixing. I've not driven a non-Tesla where I've thought "I wonder if the next software update will fix auto wipers?", it has just worked on day one. Everything on our cars is sold as "beta", including the wipers. I also don't know how much of the market actually care about software updates in the grand scheme of things.

Tesla are all in on self-driving, and this seems to be only in the States/Canada. Europe and elsewhere is an total afterthought in development terms. If they crack it they could end up being the most successful motor company in the world, but they could die trying. It is also not at all certain how many customers actually would accept - or want - their cars to drive them around on every single journey. it only takes one faillure to potentially cause £thousands of damage. Regulations in Europe are certain to lag technology by several years as well, I could easily believe UNECE allowing level 4 upwards taking 10 years or more. In the meantime, it seems, we get nothing.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of things. If Tesla continue down the value engineering path to the detriment of their customers I could easily forsee a situation where most of their customers end up being one time purchasers, with their aspirational value diminishing accordingly.

 

[BongoFury]

If the rumours about the next M3 refresh being orientated towards consolidation of parts, rather than delivering a significant uplift in specification, I suspect what you're saying might come to pass.

Tesla have a great charging network which will always be a USP (so long as they don't open it all up), but ~95% of journeys are short range so I wonder how many typical M3/MY owners really need it.

The mobile service is likewise really good, but there's nothing stopping other manufacturers adopting this quite easily.

To my mind the things that Tesla have got going for them are battery and motor efficiency. They are still noticeably better than the competition in that area. That advantage won't last indefinitely. In pretty much every other department they are worse, in my opinion. I love the minimalist interior, but overall it is nowhere near the standard in terms of materials, etc you get in the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc, or even cheaper stuff. My £60k car has noticeably more wind noise at speed than a £30k MG4.

What I think Tesla have got going for it over its competitors is the attitude to software, and servicing. Their operating costs much be substantially lower than traditional manufacturers with big glass fronted dealerships, and we already know that their vertical integration means they have the highest margins per car of any manufacturer. Traditional manufacturers still want to maintain the post-sale servicing racket, Porsche quote silly money for service packs for a Taycan - when there must be next to no serviceable parts in it (like any EV). Porsche owners might be accepting of that, along with "Turbo" badges that make no sense, but at least Tesla is refreshingly honest with their advice that you basically don't need formal service intervals.

I'm a nerd so I enjoy the OTA software updates (not so much the endless "fart" content though), etc. I don't know how much of the market that really is though. You could make an argument that other manufacturers deliver cars with functionality that doesn't need constant bugfixing. I've not driven a non-Tesla where I've thought "I wonder if the next software update will fix auto wipers?", it has just worked on day one. Everything on our cars is sold as "beta", including the wipers. I also don't know how much of the market actually care about software updates in the grand scheme of things.

Tesla are all in on self-driving, and this seems to be only in the States/Canada. Europe and elsewhere is an total afterthought in development terms. If they crack it they could end up being the most successful motor company in the world, but they could die trying. It is also not at all certain how many customers actually would accept - or want - their cars to drive them around on every single journey. it only takes one faillure to potentially cause £thousands of damage. Regulations in Europe are certain to lag technology by several years as well, I could easily believe UNECE allowing level 4 upwards taking 10 years or more. In the meantime, it seems, we get nothing.

I pretty much agree with your assessment of things. If Tesla continue down the value engineering path to the detriment of their customers I could easily forsee a situation where most of their customers end up being one time purchasers, with their aspirational value diminishing accordingly.

I completely agree with your entire assessment!! I have a brand new RWD M3, I chose it over all the available and upcoming EV's in the £35K -£50K price bracket (or in my case the £350 - £600 per month lease costs) when I ordered it in May last year. I seriously considered the Cupra Born long range, Ioniq 5, Enyaq, new e-niro and EV6 as well as the MG5 on the budget end and after creating a PowerPoint presentation for my wife, rating lots of different features of the cars still decided on the M3 even though it was top of my budget for the following reasons: Superchargers, standard features (like autopilot, heated seats, heated steering wheel, the tech stack and USS...oops!) and efficiency and performance. Other than the lack of USS I think the M3 still just about hits the sweetspot especially over the E-niro where to get the same features but with worse performance and worse charging infrastructure and speed you would still need to spend RWD money.

 

[MashinBenzin]

I completely agree with your entire assessment!! I have a brand new RWD M3, I chose it over all the available and upcoming EV's in the £35K -£50K price bracket (or in my case the £350 - £600 per month lease costs) when I ordered it in May last year. I seriously considered the Cupra Born long range, Ioniq 5, Enyaq, new e-niro and EV6 as well as the MG5 on the budget end and after creating a PowerPoint presentation for my wife, rating lots of different features of the cars still decided on the M3 even though it was top of my budget for the following reasons: Superchargers, standard features (like autopilot, heated seats, heated steering wheel, the tech stack and USS...oops!) and efficiency and performance. Other than the lack of USS I think the M3 still just about hits the sweetspot especially over the E-niro where to get the same features but with worse performance and worse charging infrastructure and speed you would still need to spend RWD money.

That’s strange. A Niro 4 is £42295 before paint /£43395 with a heat pump. It has more kit than my £60k model Y. Slightly lower range, although how different in the real world…
A model 3 RWD before paint is £48.5k

ETA I’m not calling your decision strange!

 

[Jason71]

I completely agree with your entire assessment!! I have a brand new RWD M3, I chose it over all the available and upcoming EV's in the £35K -£50K price bracket (or in my case the £350 - £600 per month lease costs) when I ordered it in May last year. I seriously considered the Cupra Born long range, Ioniq 5, Enyaq, new e-niro and EV6 as well as the MG5 on the budget end and after creating a PowerPoint presentation for my wife, rating lots of different features of the cars still decided on the M3 even though it was top of my budget for the following reasons: Superchargers, standard features (like autopilot, heated seats, heated steering wheel, the tech stack and USS...oops!) and efficiency and performance. Other than the lack of USS I think the M3 still just about hits the sweetspot especially over the E-niro where to get the same features but with worse performance and worse charging infrastructure and speed you would still need to spend RWD money.

I did a similar comparison in 2019. It went like this:

E-Niro: 12 month wait
Kona: Too small + 12 month wait.
Ipace: too expensive
Polstar2: not launched yet

Model 3 it is then

Life was much simpler then

 

[DaveW]

The reason I've got a new Tesla over the competition is because what they do well, they do much better than the competition still, for me at least.

- Efficiency and performance combined - this is the biggest one.
- Charging network simplicity - I actively try and avoid needing to charge on route if I can help it, but it's a great bonus when you need it (just maybe not on Xmas eve )
- Infotainment, this will divide people I'm sure, the software in the Hyundai was simply dreadful - I still don't understand why by default it kept switching me back to low/no regen every time I stopped, it's an EV, that's the point - The BMW i4 system was massively convoluted too, all felt sluggish even compared to my 2019 M3P at the time, like when you use a cheap touch screen vs an iPhone or decent Samsung / Google pixel phone.

As someone not obsessed with having CarPlay, the Tesla system works perfectly for me, simple to use and clean.

The BMW was a nice place to sit, albeit just like every other BMW I've ever sat in, but even the fastest i4 wasn't as fast as the M3P, it could have course have a huge spec for a huge price.

I've moved on from Tesla fanboy status (definitely was one when I first got it) and actively looked for a comparable EV with the specs important to me and they don't yet exist.

 

[Drew57]

In defence of the price increases, the entry level M3 RWD now has the same or better spec than the original M3 LR in some respects. It now has heated rear seats, heated steering wheel, heat pump, nearly the same working range, laminated glass, mobile charging pads. headlights

You were doing so well up to that last point George.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

You were doing so well up to that last point George.

lol

I had put matrix headlights at first, then thought no, they're not active matrix yet so removed the matrix bit... I live in hope (despite what some people say)

 

[DaveW]

I would say, even though not active matrix, they are a lot better than the previous lights, the beam/pattern is much more focused, whereas the older ones, when properly aligned (not dazzling post update) were pretty bad, felt like a low wide beam.

 

[BongoFury]

That’s strange. A Niro 4 is £42295 before paint /£43395 with a heat pump. It has more kit than my £60k model Y. Slightly lower range, although how different in the real world…
A model 3 RWD before paint is £48.5k

ETA I’m not calling your decision strange!

Thats okay, I ordered my model 3 before the last price increase so it was much closer in price. One of the use cases I used as a benchmark was a 120-mile trip each way to my father in laws in Nottingham that we do regularly up the M5 and along the M42. Hopwood services on the M42 have a bunch of superchargers but only a couple of other 50kw chargers so this really swung the decision-making as in the winter it would be touch and go whether we could make it there and back without having to charge en route.

 

[MashinBenzin]

Thats okay, I ordered my model 3 before the last price increase so it was much closer in price. One of the use cases I used as a benchmark was a 120-mile trip each way to my father in laws in Nottingham that we do regularly up the M5 and along the M42. Hopwood services on the M42 have a bunch of superchargers but only a couple of other 50kw chargers so this really swung the decision-making as in the winter it would be touch and go whether we could make it there and back without having to charge en route.

Wise thinking. 200 motorway miles was touch and go for me recently - 98% down to 5%. Only saved that 5% by cruising behind a lorry at 54mph for the last 45 miles. At one point it was predicting I wouldn’t make it home.

 

[Skotty]

I voted No, but I do have concerns. Elon's behavior lately which I believe is a new liability for the company, rising prices at a time when I suspect demand will start to fall, latest innovations have fallen somewhat flat (the complete removal of stalks w/ yoke steering which hasn't been widely popular like past innovations), competition at least threatening to catch up (new e-F150 looks good, if you can actually get one for a reasonable price, and there is now a fast charging network across the country other than Tesla Superchargers, even if it's not as good yet), and the general speed of development seems to have stalled a bit (Where is the new Roadster? When will we see Cybertruck?). Plus I continue to maintain that self driving, while an important thing to work on, continues to suffer from expectations that exceed reality (by both Tesla and it's customers).

That said, I think Tesla is still in a strong place with room to excel. They just need Elon to refocus, a few fresh ideas (don't have to be radical; I still think a larger battery option for long range would be popular if they can squish in the extra cells), get Cybertruck in production, and perhaps drop prices a bit over the next year and offer a few upcharge optional extras (maybe bring pano roof back as an option).

 

[Zilla91]

Yikes, sounds like customers in China have lost faith...

Tesla owners in China protest against surprise price cuts they missed

Hundreds of Tesla owners gathered at the automaker's showrooms and distribution centres in China over the weekend, demanding rebates and credit after sudden price cuts they said meant they had overpaid for electric cars they bought earlier.

www.reuters.com

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Yikes, sounds like customers in China have lost faith...

Tesla owners in China protest against surprise price cuts they missed

Hundreds of Tesla owners gathered at the automaker's showrooms and distribution centres in China over the weekend, demanding rebates and credit after sudden price cuts they said meant they had overpaid for electric cars they bought earlier.

www.reuters.com

They should have been in the UK when Tesla knocked nearly £40k off the list price of the P100D. That stung a few.

It's the downside of transparency, some love the idea of the price Tesla say is the price you pay, no haggling, everyone pays the same, and none of that phoning around dealers seeing who's prepared to discount the most. But the quid pro quo is when the manufacturer decides they need to encourage the market and drop the price, it's there for all to see.

Same thing happens with the continual spec changes. Your car can be an old spec within days of taking delivery, whenever you take delviery. The other makes tend to have a kind of 3-6 year cycle, launch, more models get dded at different price points, maybe some special editions with more kit for a small increase in price, then a mid term make over that will keep the car going for another 3 years before a new model comes out. As the end of that second wave approaches, discounts get bigger, specs get higher. You kind of know where you are if you do some research.

 

[pgkevet]

It's quite interesting to look at car prices in different countries with differentials way above transport costs.

 

[ElectricIAC]

It's quite interesting to look at car prices in different countries with differentials way above transport costs.

Yes some countries have really nasty import tax or VAT type of arrangements.

 

[Doudeau]

Same thing happens with the continual spec changes. Your car can be an old spec within days of taking delivery, whenever you take delviery.

Although I switched to a MIC car in 2021 for the extras over my previous Fremont M3 I don’t see the incremental evolution of the M3 as very significant and it feels less complicated than picking another manufacturers’ car.

Buying a new BMW, unless you really don’t care about the cost (and add all the packs), you will inevitably have a car with missing options over the ultimate spec.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Although I switched to a MIC car in 2021 for the extras over my previous Fremont M3 I don’t see the incremental evolution of the M3 as very significant and it feels less complicated than picking another manufacturers’ car.

Buying a new BMW, unless you really don’t care about the cost (and add all the packs), you will inevitably have a car with missing options over the ultimate spec.

I was referring to things like the heat pump arrived, then the heated steering wheel didn’t seem to change on the same date, and the SR+/RWD didn’t get it at first, then the MCU changed to Rzyen, the low volt battery changed, the radar went, the interior camera had infrared lighting applied at some point, the motors changed to hairpin windings, the battery size grew on some models, the MY had a rear parcel shelf added, the suspension may (or may not have been tweaked), the lights became matrix led, the glazing became laminated, the parking sensors.. it’s these changes to the spec I’m thinking off. (I probably have them out of chronological order, but that’s what 10-12 changes to the models, not all at the same time over the last 18 months or so.