Help me decide: Model Y or Mach-E

[Baybay408]

In late September, I placed a deposit on the the Model Y ($53,990 for Long Range, Pearl White, 19" Gemini, Black Interior) and the Mach-E ($53,100 for Premium, Extended Range, RWD, Grabber Blue). Both were originally scheduled to be delivered in April, though the MY is now showing a Feb 19 - March 19 delivery. I can only buy one. There are still many months before I need to decide. As of today, I am exactly 50/50 on which I will pick. Some of this decision will depend on the available tax credit at the time of purchase. Hopefully congress gets its act together and both get a credit next year. If one is substantially cheaper due to a tax credit I will likely go that way (though hard to say if the MY shows up without a credit and the Mach-E still has one but is still months away from delivery).

Anyway, I need your help! I've put together a list of pros and cons in the fine tradition of Benjamin Franklin and Walter White. These lists are specific to my own decision, as I see it. Please let me know if any of these considerations are off base, or if there is anything else I should be considering. I will post the two lists in subsequent posts.

And full disclosure... I also cross-posted the same lists on a Tesla forum. It will be interesting to see the differences in replies... Here are the lists:

Advantage Tesla Model Y

• Known reliability. Tesla has been making EVs for a while now, and has straightened out a lot of early production issues. Ford is just getting started, so there are likely to be a lot more issues for the first few years. Will a 2022 Mach-E be as reliable as a 2022 Model Y? What will the difference in cost of ownership be in 10 years?
• Polished UI. The touchscreen is really snappy, whereas the Mach-E touchscreen is sluggish. The Tesla software seems a little more refined too.
• Supercharger network. I have a lot more confidence that I won’t get stranded on long trips.
• Joy of driving. I’ve seen plenty of YouTube videos of people testing these two cars side by side and stating they enjoy driving the Tesla more, especially comparing the one pedal driving. Granted most of these people are Tesla owners, but not all. I have taken a test drive in both, and Tesla even gave me an overnight test drive. I will admit, the Tesla did feel a bit more responsive on the pedal, though it wasn't a huge difference.
• Performance. The Model Y base model does 0-60 mph in 4.8 seconds, and comes with AWD standard. The Mach-E RWD model I ordered does it in 6.1. Yes, I could upgrade to the AWD model and achieve 4.8, but this is an extra $2.7K. (Aside, I actually prefer the longer range and cheaper price which is why I’m not upgrading the Mach-E.)
• Cargo capacity. 68 cu ft vs 60 doesn’t seem like much, but it could make the difference. I am choosing a hatchback for a reason: I want to carry things.
• Autopilot. As of today, Tesla’s autopilot is more capable than Ford’s version. Ford is still developing theirs, so this could change. I have no interest in FSD.

Advantage Ford Mach-E

• Body Style. The Mach-E looks great. The body looks muscular. The LED projector headlights on the Premium look amazing, as do the taillights. I also like the futuristic look of the Model Y, but not as much.
• Paint and color. I ordered the Grabber Blue and love this color! I would almost buy the car just for the color. The Tesla looks good in white, but I don’t think is as much a head turner. Also, I’ve heard credible stories of lower paint quality control on the Tesla, including orange peeling, dust nibs, swirl marks, and more susceptibility to chipping. That last one is a particular concern, as a good paint job shouldn’t easily chip.
• Build quality. The Mach-E feels solid, and well built. Tesla is known for its inconsistent build quality, including panel gaps, loose parts, and water leaks.
• Novelty. There are Teslas everywhere. I don’t need to be the only one owning my car, but I’m not sure if it would feel as special if every parking lot I pull into has 10 other cars identical to mine.
• Dashboard screen behind steering wheel. I just want to see an instrument cluster behind the steering wheel. I don’t like that I have to look to the side to see my speed and range on the Model Y. Plus, the upper left of the Model Y screen just looks unpolished to me. The Mach-E does this much better.
• Physical controls. The Mach-E has physical controls for adjusting the side mirrors, direction of the climate control, a latch to open the glove box, turn on/off interior lights, and operate the windshield wipers. The Model Y does these through the touchscreen. Who wants to adjust their wipers through a touchscreen.
• Garage door opener. The Mach-E has a real garage door opener in the visor. I have to pay $350 to get this feature in the Model Y touchscreen, which I’m not about to do. I prefer a real button anyway.
• Apple CarPlay. Why doesn’t the Tesla have this? It’s just stupid.
• Long company track record. Ford has been here from the start. Tesla is a newcomer, run by a a guy who seems slightly crazy. Will they be around in 10 years?

I own a model Y LR, I recently tested Mach-e premium awd, in terms of driving dynamics, performance, handling, range etc it is as good as Model Y and better in some aspects. And blue cruise is as good as AP. Tesla's advantage is FSD option and charging network.
If you are not interested in FSD and you don't do long travels often, then they are equal, ford is cheaper with tax insentives.

 

[WhiteWi]

I own a model Y LR, I recently tested Mach-e premium awd, in terms of driving dynamics, performance, handling, range etc it is as good as Model Y and better in some aspects. And blue cruise is as good as AP. Tesla's advantage is FSD option and charging network.
If you are not interested in FSD and you don't do long travels often, then they are equal, ford is cheaper with tax insentives.

Not even close. You might want to do research about battery thermal management system problems in machE.

 

[Montucky]

If you really want to geek out about the technical differences between the Mach-E and the Model Y, Monroe Engineering has a great YouTube channel. The Mach-E is much more complicated with many more failure points than the Tesla product. Here's just one video that talks about the differences in the thermal management systems. With Tesla, simple is better:

 

[TallGear]

Not even close. You might want to do research about battery thermal management system problems in machE

Not even close. You might want to do research about battery thermal management system problems in machE.

You’re assuming complex=problematic. I watched all of Monroe’s videos on the MachE, there’s nothing he mentioned about it not working as well. Just that it’s needlessly heavy (by 20lbs or so) and harder to install with more potential points of failure than are necessary for a static and low pressure system like an EV battery. He’s analyzing everything from an automation and assembly line standpoint, not functionality. The system is not all that different from what you see in all ICE vehicles, and you don’t see sub-10 year old ICE vehicles constantly broken down with bad coolant hoses. There are in fact dozens and dozens of models of ICE vehicles all using this kind of system that are dramatically more reliable than Teslas; so it’s weird that Tesla fanatics have all rabidly gone after this one point Sandy made.

 

[thesmokingman]

You’re assuming complex=problematic. I watched all of Monroe’s videos on the MachE, there’s nothing he mentioned about it not working as well. Just that it’s needlessly heavy (by 20lbs or so) and harder to install with more potential points of failure than are necessary for a static and low pressure system like an EV battery. He’s analyzing everything from an automation and assembly line standpoint, not functionality. The system is not all that different from what you see in all ICE vehicles, and you don’t see sub-10 year old ICE vehicles constantly broken down with bad coolant hoses. There are in fact dozens and dozens of models of ICE vehicles all using this kind of system that are dramatically more reliable than Teslas; so it’s weird that Tesla fanatics have all rabidly gone after this one point Sandy made.

It is problematic, especially on the GT. I'm guessing you haven't read about the GT being limited to 5 seconds of full power due to major weaknesses in the cooling system yea?

 

[TallGear]

It is problematic, especially on the GT. I'm guessing you haven't read about the GT being limited to 5 seconds of full power due to major weaknesses in the cooling system yea?

No one has confirmed that it’s due to a weakness in the cooling system. ICE engines run at double the temperatures of EV motors all day, every day with those cooling systems. Ford is being stupidly overkill with a lot of the software based battery degradation protections that are ruining the performance of the car, like dropping charging rates off a cliff at 80% and having like 15kwh of unusable reserve battery pack capacity. There’s no motor that’s going to run a high enough C rate through that large of a cell pack to actually overheat it in 5 seconds, it’s all being nannied to death by software safeguards.

 

[thesmokingman]

No one has confirmed that it’s due to a weakness in the cooling system. ICE engines run at double the temperatures of EV motors all day, every day with those cooling systems. Ford is being stupidly overkill with a lot of the software based battery degradation protections that are ruining the performance of the car, like dropping charging rates off a cliff at 80% and having like 15kwh of unusable reserve battery pack capacity. There’s no motor that’s going to run a high enough C rate through that large of a cell pack to actually overheat it in 5 seconds, it’s all being nannied to death by software safeguards.

Seriously? You feel more confident than Ford. Ok then...

 

[TallGear]

No, I have a background in electrical engineering and know what they’re doing with their initial roll-out of a brand new vehicle platform. With OTA they can slowly unlock more capacity and back off the nannying as they incrementally analyze warranty claim rates for motor and battery issues related to overheating with each round of updates. You don’t cannibalize your brands strongest trademark for another product without building in some guiderails and KPIs to monitor.

 

[thesmokingman]

No, I have a background in electrical engineering and know what they’re doing with their initial roll-out of a brand new vehicle platform. With OTA they can slowly unlock more capacity and back off the nannying as they incrementally analyze warranty claim rates for motor and battery issues related to overheating with each round of updates. You don’t cannibalize your brands strongest trademark for another product without building in some guiderails and KPIs to monitor.

Here's a pro tip. Design a good product and you don't have to gimp at the time of sale. How about that? The limiter is there. THERE IS A PROBLEM.

 

[TallGear]

Here's a pro tip. Design a good product and you don't have to gimp at the time of sale. How about that? The limiter is there. THERE IS A PROBLEM.

you mean like charging $10k for beta software?

 

[thesmokingman]

you mean like charging $10k for beta software?

So you got jack and now trying a different line of troll?

 

[TallGear]

Here's a pro tip. Design a good product and you don't have to gimp at the time of sale. How about that? The limiter is there. THERE IS A PROBLEM.

Or claiming a top speed that requires a special brake/tire package that doesn’t exist yet?

 

[thesmokingman]

Or claiming a top speed that requires a special brake/tire package that doesn’t exist yet?

Still got nothing huh?

 

[TallGear]

Still got nothing huh?

I don’t know wtf you’re even talking about. I’m not debating the fact that it throttles power is dumb, just stating that fact that it’s a software imposed limit and not hardware. Theres nothing special about the heat generation of an EV that coolant hoses can’t handle. And if you’re comparing a MachE non-GT to a MYLR, it’s a non-issue since only the GT gets throttled back

 

[Montucky]

Traditional automakers are going to have a tough time with this transition to EV's. The "business as usual" doesn't transfer well, and this is evidenced by the lack of elegance in the design decisions made by Ford in creating the Mach-E. It's also a well known organizational problem discussed at length in academic circles where established players are unable to react effectively to combat evolving disruptive technology. "The Innovators Dilemma" by Clayton Christensen is a great book on the topic.

The coolant system as designed on the Mach-E speaks of 2 things: 1) Design thinking that's heavily influenced by ICE motor development 2) An overly complex system beyond what is needed to serve the design goals. Each of those hose clamps is a failure point. Each of those pumps will wear out. Each of those hoses must be assembled by a human, and are subject to human error. Simple = beautiful, and simple = less likely to fail. Simple also equals harder to do.. and requires design dedication, intellectual flexibility, and disruptive thinking. Ford is clearly stocked with talented engineers, but they are specialized engineers, largely trained to apply the same thinking and problem solving that they use on ICE cars - which often don't translate well to the world of EVs. This explains why Ford nailed the motor and drivetrain designs and why Sandy raved about the beauty of these systems. But the stuff that's new - like electrical thermal management, and UX designs... Ford doesn't have the bench to do this well. Tesla does because they started fresh - absent any preconceived ideas and actively encouraged to be disruptive in their design goals by both leadership and management.

At the end of the day, this complexity of the design decisions made by Ford will hinder their reliability, and will cripple profit and flexible manufacturing. More parts = more headaches when supply chains are stressed. Complex assemblies also take more time and more resources to assemble, so profit and throughput suffers as well. As they say, 80% of the costs of your product are incurred in the first 20% of its' development. Meaning that you have to make good design decisions to really keep cost and reliability at bay. Tesla made some good calls on the design side - they just need to get the manufacturing quality side of it - and the customer service side of it! - dialed... but when they do, it'll be really difficult for the major automakers to keep up.

 

[Maxpilot]

Well this is a Tesla forum, so.... Get the Mach-E. Come back and let us know how you like it.

 

[WADan]

Traditional automakers are going to have a tough time with this transition to EV's. The "business as usual" doesn't transfer well, and this is evidenced by the lack of elegance in the design decisions made by Ford in creating the Mach-E. It's also a well known organizational problem discussed at length in academic circles where established players are unable to react effectively to combat evolving disruptive technology. "The Innovators Dilemma" by Clayton Christensen is a great book on the topic.

The coolant system as designed on the Mach-E speaks of 2 things: 1) Design thinking that's heavily influenced by ICE motor development 2) An overly complex system beyond what is needed to serve the design goals. Each of those hose clamps is a failure point. Each of those pumps will wear out. Each of those hoses must be assembled by a human, and are subject to human error. Simple = beautiful, and simple = less likely to fail. Simple also equals harder to do.. and requires design dedication, intellectual flexibility, and disruptive thinking. Ford is clearly stocked with talented engineers, but they are specialized engineers, largely trained to apply the same thinking and problem solving that they use on ICE cars - which often don't translate well to the world of EVs. This explains why Ford nailed the motor and drivetrain designs and why Sandy raved about the beauty of these systems. But the stuff that's new - like electrical thermal management, and UX designs... Ford doesn't have the bench to do this well. Tesla does because they started fresh - absent any preconceived ideas and actively encouraged to be disruptive in their design goals by both leadership and management.

At the end of the day, this complexity of the design decisions made by Ford will hinder their reliability, and will cripple profit and flexible manufacturing. More parts = more headaches when supply chains are stressed. Complex assemblies also take more time and more resources to assemble, so profit and throughput suffers as well. As they say, 80% of the costs of your product are incurred in the first 20% of its' development. Meaning that you have to make good design decisions to really keep cost and reliability at bay. Tesla made some good calls on the design side - they just need to get the manufacturing quality side of it - and the customer service side of it! - dialed... but when they do, it'll be really difficult for the major automakers to keep up.

I think you are absolutely correct!
But, isn’t the electric motor that Sandy raves about is made by Bosch?

 

[Montucky]

I think you are absolutely correct!
But, isn’t the electric motor that Sandy raves about is made by Bosch?

I wasn't sure about that... I think that Ford has established relationships with Bosch on stuff like that so likely some form of collaboration?

 

[AZMOM]

In late September, I placed a deposit on the the Model Y ($53,990 for Long Range, Pearl White, 19" Gemini, Black Interior) and the Mach-E ($53,100 for Premium, Extended Range, RWD, Grabber Blue). Both were originally scheduled to be delivered in April, though the MY is now showing a Feb 19 - March 19 delivery. I can only buy one. There are still many months before I need to decide. As of today, I am exactly 50/50 on which I will pick. Some of this decision will depend on the available tax credit at the time of purchase. Hopefully congress gets its act together and both get a credit next year. If one is substantially cheaper due to a tax credit I will likely go that way (though hard to say if the MY shows up without a credit and the Mach-E still has one but is still months away from delivery).

Anyway, I need your help! I've put together a list of pros and cons in the fine tradition of Benjamin Franklin and Walter White. These lists are specific to my own decision, as I see it. Please let me know if any of these considerations are off base, or if there is anything else I should be considering. I will post the two lists in subsequent posts.

And full disclosure... I also cross-posted the same lists on a Tesla forum. It will be interesting to see the differences in replies... Here are the lists:

Advantage Tesla Model Y

• Known reliability. Tesla has been making EVs for a while now, and has straightened out a lot of early production issues. Ford is just getting started, so there are likely to be a lot more issues for the first few years. Will a 2022 Mach-E be as reliable as a 2022 Model Y? What will the difference in cost of ownership be in 10 years?
• Polished UI. The touchscreen is really snappy, whereas the Mach-E touchscreen is sluggish. The Tesla software seems a little more refined too.
• Supercharger network. I have a lot more confidence that I won’t get stranded on long trips.
• Joy of driving. I’ve seen plenty of YouTube videos of people testing these two cars side by side and stating they enjoy driving the Tesla more, especially comparing the one pedal driving. Granted most of these people are Tesla owners, but not all. I have taken a test drive in both, and Tesla even gave me an overnight test drive. I will admit, the Tesla did feel a bit more responsive on the pedal, though it wasn't a huge difference.
• Performance. The Model Y base model does 0-60 mph in 4.8 seconds, and comes with AWD standard. The Mach-E RWD model I ordered does it in 6.1. Yes, I could upgrade to the AWD model and achieve 4.8, but this is an extra $2.7K. (Aside, I actually prefer the longer range and cheaper price which is why I’m not upgrading the Mach-E.)
• Cargo capacity. 68 cu ft vs 60 doesn’t seem like much, but it could make the difference. I am choosing a hatchback for a reason: I want to carry things.
• Autopilot. As of today, Tesla’s autopilot is more capable than Ford’s version. Ford is still developing theirs, so this could change. I have no interest in FSD.

Advantage Ford Mach-E

• Body Style. The Mach-E looks great. The body looks muscular. The LED projector headlights on the Premium look amazing, as do the taillights. I also like the futuristic look of the Model Y, but not as much.
• Paint and color. I ordered the Grabber Blue and love this color! I would almost buy the car just for the color. The Tesla looks good in white, but I don’t think is as much a head turner. Also, I’ve heard credible stories of lower paint quality control on the Tesla, including orange peeling, dust nibs, swirl marks, and more susceptibility to chipping. That last one is a particular concern, as a good paint job shouldn’t easily chip.
• Build quality. The Mach-E feels solid, and well built. Tesla is known for its inconsistent build quality, including panel gaps, loose parts, and water leaks.
• Novelty. There are Teslas everywhere. I don’t need to be the only one owning my car, but I’m not sure if it would feel as special if every parking lot I pull into has 10 other cars identical to mine.
• Dashboard screen behind steering wheel. I just want to see an instrument cluster behind the steering wheel. I don’t like that I have to look to the side to see my speed and range on the Model Y. Plus, the upper left of the Model Y screen just looks unpolished to me. The Mach-E does this much better.
• Physical controls. The Mach-E has physical controls for adjusting the side mirrors, direction of the climate control, a latch to open the glove box, turn on/off interior lights, and operate the windshield wipers. The Model Y does these through the touchscreen. Who wants to adjust their wipers through a touchscreen.
• Garage door opener. The Mach-E has a real garage door opener in the visor. I have to pay $350 to get this feature in the Model Y touchscreen, which I’m not about to do. I prefer a real button anyway.
• Apple CarPlay. Why doesn’t the Tesla have this? It’s just stupid.
• Long company track record. Ford has been here from the start. Tesla is a newcomer, run by a a guy who seems slightly crazy. Will they be around in 10 years?

There are so many ways to personalize the exterior of your Tesla, some of them very inexpensive. I took three minutes to install T decals on my Y - they come in many colors and were twenty bucks.
Our decision to get the Y came down to it having the longest range.

 

[pt19713]

Not even close. You might want to do research about battery thermal management system problems in machE.

Only an issue on the GT and GTPE trims. The Premium doesn't have any power throttling.