Help me decide: Model Y or Mach-E

[voxel]

I like sporty wagons. I would buy an M3P wagon over M3P sedan in a heartbeat. Mach-E does sit up high like a crossover though, yes it's mostly from the battery, but regardless behind the wheel it feels pretty much like a crossover to me, just maybe on the lower side of crossover territory. It also has more vertical height inside than any wagon, hatchback, or sedan I've owned.

A few inches shorter than a RAV4 (I parked beside one and couldn't help 'dick measuring" lol) and almost the same length (MME is a few inches longer).

The ID.4 is 100% SUV. It has 8.2" of clearance. The Mach-E has like 5.7" which is an half-foot more than the Model 3 but less than the Model Y. I find the Mach-E drives much like a Model 3... it just feels lower. The ID.4 has some body roll and with the soft suspension it's very much a high SUV. It also runs over potholes like they don't exist which is NOT true of the Mach-E and Model Y. The Model Y is smack dab in the middle of the two - both in ground clearance and handling. Doesn't feel like a sedan (good and bad - you are higher up).

Oh... folks have complained that rear passengers get car sick on the Mach-E. It's suspension is pretty harsh so families should NOT buy it unless they take a test drive on rough roads. I have not heard of this problem with the Model Y

 

[tm1v2]

A few inches shorter than a RAV4 (I parked beside one and couldn't help 'dick measuring" lol) and almost the same length (MME is a few inches longer).

The ID.4 is 100% SUV. It has 8.2" of clearance. The Mach-E has like 5.7" which is an half-foot more than the Model 3 but less than the Model Y. I find the Mach-E drives much like a Model 3... it just feels lower. The ID.4 has some body roll and with the soft suspension it's very much a high SUV. It also runs over potholes like they don't exist which is NOT true of the Mach-E and Model Y. The Model Y is smack dab in the middle of the two - both in ground clearance and handling. Doesn't feel like a sedan (good and bad - you are higher up).

I don't think ground clearance has ever been a focus of CUVs / Crossovers. Heck a mid/late 2000s Subaru Outback has more ground clearance than most crossovers, yet those Outbacks were truly just lifted wagons, with less vertical space inside than a Mach-E. I'm pretty sure most crossover buyers care more about the high seating position than ground clearance.

Oh... folks have complained that rear passengers get car sick on the Mach-E. It's suspension is pretty harsh so families should NOT buy it unless they take a test drive on rough roads. I have not heard of this problem with the Model Y

Have you actually driven a Mach-E? To me the regular Mach-E suspension (not GT PE Magneride) felt very soft. It wasn't harsh at all. The ride issue is it's so soft it gets floaty on the highway. That can contribute to motion sickness.

The 2021 MYLR I tested was very stiff and harsh. Not floaty though! It was too far in the other direction, in my opinion.

The Mach-E GT PE Magneride suspension is excellent. Not harsh or floaty at all, just smooth and well-controlled at the same time. Ford should really make Magneride available on all the trim levels, it's wholly better than their base suspension. It still wasn't my favorite EV suspension, that would be the Öhlins DFV on the Polestar 2 Performance, but the GT PE Magneride was very good.

 

[voxel]

Have you actually driven a Mach-E? To me the regular Mach-E suspension (not GT PE Magneride) felt very soft. It wasn't harsh at all. The ride issue is it's so soft it gets floaty on the highway. That can contribute to motion sickness.

The 2021 MYLR I tested was very stiff and harsh. Not floaty though! It was too far in the other direction, in my opinion.

The Mach-E GT PE Magneride suspension is excellent. Not harsh or floaty at all, just smooth and well-controlled at the same time. Ford should really make Magneride available on all the trim levels, it's wholly better than their base suspension. It still wasn't my favorite EV suspension, that would be the Öhlins DFV on the Polestar 2 Performance, but the GT PE Magneride was very good.

I have a Mach-E Premium RWD and the suspension is firm. It's not noticeable on city streets but on rough highways and over potholes it's pretty harsh. It's Model 3 firm IMO. The ID.4 is the opposite - I drove over holes and bumps like they barely existed. In my old cars I would brace for a section of highway or railroad track that would cause me to leap out of my seat but the ID.4 rolled over them. Of course with soft suspension it has more body roll than the other two. The Model Y (I traded this for the Mach-E) definitely had a firm suspension but is a tad softer than the MME.... Again we have different experiences. I also had the 20" inductions but not sure of that matters..

I would love air suspension on the Y or Magenride on all MME trims. It's the weakest part of these EVs.

This guy created a 3.5 HOUR video comparing the EVs...

 

[Tha_Ape]

The Model Y would be at the bottom too if test. EVs aren't suited for police work. They dinged the physical controls on the Mach-E which are the same on the other Ford cars.

Seriously.. the Y is a bulbous SUV and the Mach-E is a station wagon. I don't understand the obsession with comparing these too... neither are sports cars nor are they perfect.

My main issue with the Y has been it's poor visibility (except front view) combined with lack of 360/blindspot/crosstraffic monitors that make it annoying to drive in freakishly busy parking lots. The Mach-E has a questionable battery cooling system (which Ford deals with by throttling charging) and a harsher ride (yeah, even harsher than the Y). I mean those negatives are pretty minor compared to my complaints on the ID.4 that has a questionable drivetrain and electrical system.

Thats not the main issue, but its an issue. Its not the EV per se that makes it bad for police work (as in patrols), its that they're not rugged enough. A gun belt will tear up those seats in a couple of weeks. Plus the screen is a single point failure. They're great for admin and detectives... just not meant for patrol. Sure some departments will put one or two out there for PR, but the reality is police cars get beat up... BADLY.

Also, Teslas specifically are hard to adjust. Lets say you have a department with 200 officers... they will need to adjust the mirrors, seat and steering wheel EVERY time they get in the car. Thats not an issue with manual seats/steer wheel adjustments, and mirrors with dedicated buttons, but its a pain with Teslas UI (Their system is perfectly fine for families). I'm sorry, they're just not patrol cars.

 

[tm1v2]

I have a Mach-E Premium RWD and the suspension is firm. It's not noticeable on city streets but on rough highways and over potholes it's pretty harsh. It's Model 3 firm IMO. The ID.4 is the opposite - I drove over holes and bumps like they barely existed. In my old cars I would brace for a section of highway or railroad track that would cause me to leap out of my seat but the ID.4 rolled over them. Of course with soft suspension it has more body roll than the other two. The Model Y (I traded this for the Mach-E) definitely had a firm suspension but is a tad softer than the MME.... Again we have different experiences. I also had the 20" inductions but not sure of that matters..

I would love air suspension on the Y or Magenride on all MME trims. It's the weakest part of these EVs.

This guy created a 3.5 HOUR video comparing the EVs...

That's really interesting that your Mach-E is firmer than your MY(LR?) was! When was your MY built? I swear the Mach-E Premium AWD I tested was smoother and softer than the MYLR I tested. Ford or Tesla or both playing funny games with changing up the suspension? Or maybe Ford sets up the RWD cars much firmer than AWD?

 

[thesmokingman]

Thats not the main issue, but its an issue. Its not the EV per se that makes it bad for police work (as in patrols), its that they're not rugged enough. A gun belt will tear up those seats in a couple of weeks. Plus the screen is a single point failure. They're great for admin and detectives... just not meant for patrol. Sure some departments will put one or two out there for PR, but the reality is police cars get beat up... BADLY.

Also, Teslas specifically are hard to adjust. Lets say you have a department with 200 officers... they will need to adjust the mirrors, seat and steering wheel EVERY time they get in the car. Thats not an issue with manual seats/steer wheel adjustments, and mirrors with dedicated buttons, but its a pain with Teslas UI (Their system is perfectly fine for families). I'm sorry, they're just not patrol cars.

Nah, Teslas work great as police cars specifically the Model 3. I'd assume the Model Y would make an even better platform just for its size and space, but it seems things are starting with the 3 first. There are a few pilot programs out there and some are turning that into reality after the pilot. But the thing is with this whole tangent is the poster you quoted was spinning on and on about how EV's are not suited for Police duty instead of looking at the specific issues with the Mach E. If we think about its power delivery limitations and in the context of a pursuit, it fails horrifically in that application. Just about any v6 powered vehicle will out run a Mach E. The Ford is an extreme example of cooling shortcoming and how not to do EV battery/motor/cooling.

Not long ago Tesla released the findings on Police Vehicle applications.

Now Max Toozs-Hobson, account manager and emergency services lead at Tesla, said the vehicles have now been in “initial trials with the police” for nine months that they have been “getting some great results.”


He shared the findings on LinkedIn:

• It’s achievable to do over 200 miles of Blue Light advance driving with the Model 3. The average blue light run in the UK is about 7-15 minutes, The longest run in our cars has been over 4 hours on active deployment under advanced driving conditions.
• The auxiliary systems have minimal impact on range, ANPR for 3 hours would take less than a few mile of range off the car. LED lights could run for days off the battery pack.
• Chill mode & speed limiting allows the cars to be limited, allowing the possibility for split crews to drive the car on shift allowing for all officers to utilize the car.
• Light bars are like running with a parachute! Integrating lights into the car cabin does not affect our drag coefficiency and requires no holes to be drilled into the roof which has a negative affect on the cars residual values.
• Charging on shift works! last week I joined a traffic unit who got into the car with just 80 miles of range. We stopped at a V3 Supercharger and gained 70% power in less than 20 minutes. This gave us another 5-6 hours of driving for the shift. Plus this fill up cost less than £20.
• Public response to seeing our active units has been mind-blowing, the press articles have been positive as well. As an engagement tool we’re seeing incredible results.
• Brakes wear has been minimal, after 10,000 miles of driving the first set of pads still had 15-20% use still in them. Tires are the same as I.C.Es and need replacing at around 8,000 miles.
• After 15,000 miles the only maintenance has been brakes and tires, no annual service schedules mean minimal running costs, time off the road and competitive total cost of ownership.
• Tesla software updates and systems offer new ways to police, the ability to send directions to the car via systems such as what3words and Google maps will allow control rooms to send direct directions to a job. Dash cam, GPS tracking & App access offer unique potential to our cars as well.
• Our delivery lead times and body shop offer industry leading deployment for forces to deploy new units and repair.

Tesla releases findings from Model 3 police patrol car test

Tesla has released findings from its test program of a Model 3 that the automaker custom-built as a police patrol...

electrek.co

Original UK pilot...

Tesla Model 3 Is A Competent Police Car, UK Trial Reveals

Tesla UK has shared interesting findings after several custom-built Model 3 patrol cars completed nine months of initial trials with the police.

insideevs.com

West Va pilot...

A West Virginia city is taking a Tesla patrol car for a test drive | CNN

A West Virginia police department is kicking the tires on a new Tesla patrol car, and city officials think the fancy new ride could save them thousands of dollars each year.

www.cnn.com

Oddity... Fremont PD is using a Model S...

Meet this California PD's tricked out Tesla

The Fremont Police Department believes there could be substantial savings by putting a fully electric vehicle into service as a patrol vehicle

www.police1.com

And the big one, NYPD might go all in... if that doesn't equal real world applicable then I dunno man.

NYPD Might Buy 250 Tesla Model 3s in $12.4 Million Deal

The department already manages a fleet of 9,000 vehicles.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Tha_Ape]

Nah, Teslas work great as police cars specifically the Model 3. I'd assume the Model Y would make an even better platform just for its size and space, but it seems things are starting with the 3 first. There are a few pilot programs out there and some are turning that into reality after the pilot. But the thing is with this whole tangent is the poster you quoted was spinning on and on about how EV's are not suited for Police duty instead of looking at the specific issues with the Mach E. If we think about its power delivery limitations and in the context of a pursuit, it fails horrifically in that application. Just about any v6 powered vehicle will out run a Mach E. The Ford is an extreme example of cooling shortcoming and how not to do EV battery/motor/cooling.

Not long ago Tesla released the findings on Police Vehicle applications.

Tesla releases findings from Model 3 police patrol car test

Tesla has released findings from its test program of a Model 3 that the automaker custom-built as a police patrol...

electrek.co

Original UK pilot...

Tesla Model 3 Is A Competent Police Car, UK Trial Reveals

Tesla UK has shared interesting findings after several custom-built Model 3 patrol cars completed nine months of initial trials with the police.

insideevs.com

West Va pilot...

A West Virginia city is taking a Tesla patrol car for a test drive | CNN

A West Virginia police department is kicking the tires on a new Tesla patrol car, and city officials think the fancy new ride could save them thousands of dollars each year.

www.cnn.com

Oddity... Fremont PD is using a Model S...

Meet this California PD's tricked out Tesla

The Fremont Police Department believes there could be substantial savings by putting a fully electric vehicle into service as a patrol vehicle

www.police1.com

And the big one, NYPD might go all in... if that doesn't equal real world applicable then I dunno man.

NYPD Might Buy 250 Tesla Model 3s in $12.4 Million Deal

The department already manages a fleet of 9,000 vehicles.

www.thedrive.com

We'll see... I know ppl that worked in police fleets and I'm just saying they tear up cars more than you might think and unions have a LOT of opinions.

 

[voxel]

That's really interesting that your Mach-E is firmer than your MY(LR?) was! When was your MY built? I swear the Mach-E Premium AWD I tested was smoother and softer than the MYLR I tested. Ford or Tesla or both playing funny games with changing up the suspension? Or maybe Ford sets up the RWD cars much firmer than AWD?

My MYLR was a Sept 2021 build with 20" inductions. I drove all three cars each just under 2000 miles - all the same roads in Orlando/Daytona/Lakeland/Tampa area. I traded the ID.4 for the Model Y and had rented the Model 3 on Turo a few days before too. I was hyper-analyzing all the cars because at the time I wasn't sure I would be happy with the Model Y but I knew the ID.4 had to go (glitchy). The rumors of a harsh ride did not materialize. The panel gaps I had (so Telsa QC issues still exist).

I test drove a Premium AWD and a month later bought a Premium RWD (with a test ride before purchase. I didn't need that but gladly accepted). The Mach-E has different rear and front suspension setups I believe... folks complain about a bounciness that is worse with more weight (carrying a family) and in warmer temps (it's been chilly in Florida). It is fixed by replacing either the rear/front with the MME GT trim ones. You might have experienced the infamous Mach-E bounce..

Various reviews mention the firm suspension of the Mach-E and the Model Y. Some find one harsher than the other. The Roadshow review of the Model Y (the one that said don't buy it) mentions the overly harsh ride of the Mach-E while various other reviews say the Model Y is harsher.

To be clear both the Model Y and Mach-E are firm borderline harsh. It depends on the situation. At 75mph on rough highway, the Mach-E is the worst of the two. It could be the tires and the fact it is lower. In the city, the Mach-has a minimally rougher ride and mostly because the 1-pedal isn't as smooth as the Model Y. The auto-hold engages and disengages at stop. Handling wise, I much prefer the Mach-E. It's sedan to me.

This was the day they were traded for each other.

 

[thesmokingman]

We'll see... I know ppl that worked in police fleets and I'm just saying they tear up cars more than you might think and unions have a LOT of opinions.

That's a funny reply, smacks of yea whatever? If you had read the link you'd see that the NYPD already tested a 3 in their fleet. Hence they are now looking to possibly add another 250 Model 3's. That seems like it is doing fine by them. NYC is a helluva crazy place to drive much less police so I'd say it's a damn good litmus test.

NYPD buys Tesla Model 3 and turns it into an electric patrol vehicle

Tesla vehicles are gaining momentum with police departments worldwide that are looking to save money and reduce emissions. Now the...

electrek.co

 

[sleepydoc]

Thats not the main issue, but its an issue. Its not the EV per se that makes it bad for police work (as in patrols), its that they're not rugged enough. A gun belt will tear up those seats in a couple of weeks. Plus the screen is a single point failure. They're great for admin and detectives... just not meant for patrol. Sure some departments will put one or two out there for PR, but the reality is police cars get beat up... BADLY.

Also, Teslas specifically are hard to adjust. Lets say you have a department with 200 officers... they will need to adjust the mirrors, seat and steering wheel EVERY time they get in the car. Thats not an issue with manual seats/steer wheel adjustments, and mirrors with dedicated buttons, but its a pain with Teslas UI (Their system is perfectly fine for families). I'm sorry, they're just not patrol cars.

Interesting - the Eden Prarie, MN department just purchased a Model Y patrol car:

Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD Elected as Eden Prairie City Police Patrol Car

Featured image: InsideEVs As part of the City's sustainability program, and in support of the proposed Climate Action Plan, the Fleet Services Division has been working with the Police Department of Eden Prairie City in Minnesota on pilot-testing an all-electric patrol vehicle. Tesla Model Y...

www.tesmanian.com

 

[pepperoni]

@pepperoni what trim levels are your Mach-E and Model Y orders?

I ordered the Mach-E CA Rte 1 AWD and the Model Y LR.

Is there still confusion with the Mach E? Do you know that it's limited to 5 seconds of max power at which point power is throttled down so much so that it gets beaten by bloated SUVs. Really, still interested in buying this?

Ford Mustang Mach-E Comes in Dead Last During Police Vehicle Test

Back in September, Ford submitted their Mustang Mach-E electric crossover to the Michigan State Police for testing. It was the first to pass, but now a new test turns up a soft spot in this potential police cruiser.

www.autoevolution.com

Maybe you’re confused. The 5 second throttle limiting was for the Mach-E GTPE, so not really relevant to the car I ordered. Also, I’m not planning on using my car as a police car so can’t see why I’d care about the police car test.

Both Tesla and Ford models I ordered are listed as 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, which is way more than I need. I’m not planning on taking either to the track or getting in high speed car chases.

 

[voxel]

That's really interesting that your Mach-E is firmer than your MY(LR?) was! When was your MY built? I swear the Mach-E Premium AWD I tested was smoother and softer than the MYLR I tested. Ford or Tesla or both playing funny games with changing up the suspension? Or maybe Ford sets up the RWD cars much firmer than AWD?

I was watching a Ioniq 5 review and noticed this comment. Ioniq 5 went the ID.4 route and not the Mach E + Model Y route with their suspension:

The sibling EV... the Kia EV6 is most definitely firm/harsh from the videos I've seen from Bjorn. It has a GT trim that goes from 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds

 

[Tha_Ape]

Interesting - the Eden Prarie, MN department just purchased a Model Y patrol car:

Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD Elected as Eden Prairie City Police Patrol Car

Featured image: InsideEVs As part of the City's sustainability program, and in support of the proposed Climate Action Plan, the Fleet Services Division has been working with the Police Department of Eden Prairie City in Minnesota on pilot-testing an all-electric patrol vehicle. Tesla Model Y...

www.tesmanian.com

Yup, they'll check it out. Notice it costs more than $25k more than a police purposed charge. Also looks like a small department.

 

[Tha_Ape]

That's a funny reply, smacks of yea whatever? If you had read the link you'd see that the NYPD already tested a 3 in their fleet. Hence they are now looking to possibly add another 250 Model 3's. That seems like it is doing fine by them. NYC is a helluva crazy place to drive much less police so I'd say it's a damn good litmus test.

NYPD buys Tesla Model 3 and turns it into an electric patrol vehicle

Tesla vehicles are gaining momentum with police departments worldwide that are looking to save money and reduce emissions. Now the...

electrek.co

Yea, but this is a HIGHWAY patrol car. Its like when departments buy Camaros to chase down speeders.

He looked at getting a Tesla as a sample car to show how greening the fleet would work out. The resounding feedback was that officers liked the speed of it, but repairs are expensive and cant be done quickly. I'm talking about repairs from accidents, not mechanical failures. Police cars tend to get in more accidents than your average car due to how much they're driven. What they determined were they were perfect for specialized units like Investigators, K9s, etc where the same person (or limited people) drive the car. So for highway patrol, it will work.

I'm not a hater of it, I'm for EV fleets. I'm for it. I just know someone who works with large law enforcement fleet acquisitions and thats the feedback they get. If Tesla makes a purpose built cruiser, it would be much better. Police cars from other manufacturers are built tougher than a regular, lets say Dodge Charger. They can have beefier suspensions, rugged interiors, Level IIIA bullet proof doors, etc.

 

[SalisburySam]

Advantage Tesla Model Y

• Supercharger network. I have a lot more confidence that I won’t get stranded on long trips.

Advantage Ford Mach-E

• Everything else.

Many of your comparison issues are personal preferences, which will override all else. Perhaps the only objective difference is long-distance travel where the supercharger network shines above all other options...at least today. So I might suggest, if you do a fair bit of travel where charging away from home/work is important, Tesla is the better option. If you don't, I'd look at the Mach-E.

 

[rickybobbee]

Yea, but this is a HIGHWAY patrol car. Its like when departments buy Camaros to chase down speeders.

He looked at getting a Tesla as a sample car to show how greening the fleet would work out. The resounding feedback was that officers liked the speed of it, but repairs are expensive and cant be done quickly. I'm talking about repairs from accidents, not mechanical failures. Police cars tend to get in more accidents than your average car due to how much they're driven. What they determined were they were perfect for specialized units like Investigators, K9s, etc where the same person (or limited people) drive the car. So for highway patrol, it will work.

I'm not a hater of it, I'm for EV fleets. I'm for it. I just know someone who works with large law enforcement fleet acquisitions and thats the feedback they get. If Tesla makes a purpose built cruiser, it would be much better. Police cars from other manufacturers are built tougher than a regular, lets say Dodge Charger. They can have beefier suspensions, rugged interiors, Level IIIA bullet proof doors, etc.

police cars don't wait in line for repairs like you and me, they get special priority from whatever shop they are contracted with.....remember it's a government agency

 

[leaftoy]

[...] The Mach-E has like 5.7" which is an half-foot more than the Model 3 but less than the Model Y. [...]

So 3 has a ground clearance of negative 0.3"?

 

[voxel]

So 3 has a ground clearance of negative 0.3"?

I meant half a full inch... lol

but even then I'm wrong... I thought the 3 was lower.

5.5 (Model 3) vs. 5.7 (MME)

The ID.4 is 8.2 and Model Y is 6.6

 

[thesmokingman]

I ordered the Mach-E CA Rte 1 AWD and the Model Y LR.



Maybe you’re confused. The 5 second throttle limiting was for the Mach-E GTPE, so not really relevant to the car I ordered. Also, I’m not planning on using my car as a police car so can’t see why I’d care about the police car test.

Both Tesla and Ford models I ordered are listed as 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, which is way more than I need. I’m not planning on taking either to the track or getting in high speed car chases.

The power limter is on the GT and ofc the PE add-on as well. The irony is that the AWD lower trim models essentially are only slightly slower whilst having a lot less power, that's in the acceleration test. The thing that's interesting I think is that the non-GT cars could be faster on a track test over distance. I've seen videos by owners showing their power meter and once it throttles power drops 40%, it stays down for a long time. That would make it slower than the non-GT over any length of distance, in fact slower than most average vehicles out there sans econo boxes.

The other thing that I thought would bother ppl more is Ford's dishonesty regarding this. They didn't disclose the true specs of the cars and left out crucial information, clearly they didn't want this to get out. That coincides with the rumor on the forums of an NDA on track testing. No review site or publication has done track testing and it's only because Ford initiated the Mach E into the Michigan Police program that we now have this real data. I'm pretty sure I would not support a company that operates this way, they put so little value in their customers.

 

[thesmokingman]

Yea, but this is a HIGHWAY patrol car. Its like when departments buy Camaros to chase down speeders.

He looked at getting a Tesla as a sample car to show how greening the fleet would work out. The resounding feedback was that officers liked the speed of it, but repairs are expensive and cant be done quickly. I'm talking about repairs from accidents, not mechanical failures. Police cars tend to get in more accidents than your average car due to how much they're driven. What they determined were they were perfect for specialized units like Investigators, K9s, etc where the same person (or limited people) drive the car. So for highway patrol, it will work.

I'm not a hater of it, I'm for EV fleets. I'm for it. I just know someone who works with large law enforcement fleet acquisitions and thats the feedback they get. If Tesla makes a purpose built cruiser, it would be much better. Police cars from other manufacturers are built tougher than a regular, lets say Dodge Charger. They can have beefier suspensions, rugged interiors, Level IIIA bullet proof doors, etc.

It doesn't really matter what your source is telling. All government agencies are going to have to cut their carbon emissions and they will either adopt it with open arms are keep coming up with BS reason why it doesn't do or fit X reason. Take the Michigan testing, I don't fault the Mach E for its screen or storage, it is what it is. The testers complained they couldn't do this or that with user interface etc etc, blah blah blah, those are not real issues but bias. It's kind of like CA DMV failing drivers for using a Tesla due to regenerative braking, it is wholly BS and is remnant legacy BIAS.

However if the NYPD is mulling over buying 250 Model 3's that means they've already calculated what the real cost to support a fleet would be. There's already something like a dozen PD's around the country running Teslas, so let's not act like the issues your source made up is something that is a deal breaker.