Those figures are for power from the wall, so it includes charging losses. Which can be 10-15%.
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Help with math
- Thread starter LongIslandY
- Start date
As I said. The EPA does not test. They accept the figures from the manufacturer, then everything else is just math. It's a shame. A total sham. Tesla claims they are more "efficient" with their drivetrains. However, when pressed about exactly how, they cannot give you an answer. The bottom line is the EPA rating for our car is based on 250Wpm. You CAN achieve that, of course... but not for long, and not with a highway involved. Over 8 months, I've averaged 284. I only drive in the slow lane, and often feel like I'm an impediment to traffic now. I still can't get anywhere near 326 miles of range on a 100% charge.
My Id4, however, really gets 10% more range than advertised. Consistently. And the USB player works flawlessly. Lol.
My Id4, however, really gets 10% more range than advertised. Consistently. And the USB player works flawlessly. Lol.
Mrbrock
Well-Known Member
And the EPA verifies each manufacturer's testing. The EPA ratings are EPA confirmed. Just because it is done in house doesn't mean there isn't oversight.
For the edmunds testing, they got 317 miles for a 326 rated 2021 LR MY. 9 miles shy. 3%. And the Polestar 2 Performance also was lower than rated. For those that are higher, they do the testing that doesn't allow them to downrate less. They could do the extra testing to allow them to downrate less (leading to higher range estimate) but they have decided not to for wahtever reason (cost, goodwill to customers, etc.). Tesla is following the rules that are available to them. If someone has a problem with the two types of testing available, then they should go to lawmakers to get this changed so every manufacturer has to follow the exact same testing.
Mercedes EQS 450+ Charge Depleting UDDS is 497.93 miles and EPA 350 miles (70% of tested value), Tesla LR MY UDDS is 446 with 330 EPA rating (74% of tested value). If Tesla rated at 70% they would be 312 miles.
Exelion
Member
I guarantee there are more people that can't get that range, than those that can. I've accepted this car's range in miles is somewhere in the mid to high 200's.
Correct. Mid, is the operative word. With highways involved. Oh, there will always be a couple people who will post pics of their energy readings, that show very low WpM, and high ranges... but for the most part, with real world driving, like you would drive any other car, without driving like a granny, your gonna get about 260- 275 on a full charge. Knowing that ahead of time, would you have changed your decision about which EV to get? Just a question.
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Mrbrock
Well-Known Member
No. You also need to compare apples to apples. It's not just range but efficiency (which if you ignore the big range number, EVA provides efficiencies in wh/100mi to evenly compare EVs). Look at the Rivian, it gets 315 miles but it also has a 135kWh battery. 70% larger battery and similar range so it will cost 70% more to drive. The EPA has to set a testing regimen and the one they chose is basic driving, some highway, some city but its constant driving with slow acceleration. No rabbit starts, no preheating, conditioning, any of that. So of course it is going to vary from what you get in real world. I never was able to get EPA MPG on any car I owned so I wouldn't expect the EPA ratings for EVs to be any different. And even Edmunds, which everyone seems to point to as a real-world scenario that is more accurate, gets almost the EPA range. Just because others get more doesn't mean every manufacturer should get more. It means under the guidelines set by the EPA, Tesla maybe over promises by 3%. If that is the case, would you pay 3% less and still love the car? If so, then Tesla will just raise the price anyways due to supply demand.
Also, I wouldn't want a car that could have much more issues when fast charging while traveling. SC network would be the deal breaker for me. Having to deal with charging apps and limited locations just wouldn't cut it for me. If you only charge at home/work and never need to drive more than 200 miles a day then why are you worried about not being able to drive 326 miles with every charge?
Exelion
Member
I actually did change my order from a standard range Y to Long range. This was during the very tiny window when SRY’s were actually selectable on the website. The reason was, I asked a few people who owned SR3’s what the range *really* was and they said it wasn’t anywhere close to the mid two hundreds as advertised. They universally said they get high (typical) 100’s to low 200’s (rare) . I knew the Y was going to get even less than that so that’s why I changed my order. As much as the real range is different than that posted, I didn’t care. Mid 200’s is fine for me, although if the standard range could actually do that, I would’ve bought that instead.
Much like MPG figures for gas cars, its a number thats posted and compared, but not a number anyone really trusts when they’re actually buying the car-they look at personal experiences from others, youtube videos and websites for *real range of x car* instead.
Hmmmm. Lots of justifying. I only KNOW this. My Tesla gets way less range than advertised. My id4 gets way more. Of course, none of that is scientific... just seat of the pants actual experience.
Though you make a lot of good points. I actual have no range anxiety. Both EV's give me plenty of range for every day driving, and as I mentioned earlier, I did decide on a Tesla because of the supercharger network. All I'm saying is that the Tesla overstates their range, while others understate it.
I'm going to go back to the Edmunds article and re-read it... but I remember the gap was significantly larger than 3%. Again, though. I had that info before I purchased. So I knew what I was getting into.
Though you make a lot of good points. I actual have no range anxiety. Both EV's give me plenty of range for every day driving, and as I mentioned earlier, I did decide on a Tesla because of the supercharger network. All I'm saying is that the Tesla overstates their range, while others understate it.
I'm going to go back to the Edmunds article and re-read it... but I remember the gap was significantly larger than 3%. Again, though. I had that info before I purchased. So I knew what I was getting into.
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There is a web site, Fuelly, where vehicle owners post information about the number of fuel fill ups, MPG for their gas and diesel vehicles. Some plug-in hybrid data too. The more owners reporting in the bigger the sample, and easier it is to gauge the results that you may expect to achieve for a specific vehicle, model, year and engine configuration.
It would be easy to set up a separate area on Fuelly for EV owners to report vehicle manufacturer, model, year, configuration, wheel size, mileage, Wh/mi, and estimated range.
Fuelly - Track and Compare your MPG
It would be easy to set up a separate area on Fuelly for EV owners to report vehicle manufacturer, model, year, configuration, wheel size, mileage, Wh/mi, and estimated range.
Fuelly - Track and Compare your MPG
Mrbrock
Well-Known Member
Here is my data for first 870 miles on my '22 MY LR:
TeslaFi
kWh added - 282.64 (324.87 Wh/mile)
kWh used- 295.24 (339.36 Wh/mile)
Car (lifetime trip counter)
231 kWh used (265.52 Wh/mile)
According to EPA it is rated at 270 Wh/mile so it meets that criteria. However, there is much more consumption outside of while driving. If you do any preconditioning or defrosting or updating that is all non-driving power usage which Tesla doesn't track in the vehicle. And not tracked via EPA either. It has been cold here pretty must every morning so I have to run car defrost for 5-10 minutes before driving (car parked outside) so I anticipate non-driving usage dropping as the weather warms.
Edmunds has been constantly updated and they retested since originally they just stopped when the car said 0 miles left. Tesla told them they needed to keep driving until the car shut down. For LR they added something like 22 miles from 0 to shutdown with the new method. Keep in mind, ranges are from 100% to shutdown. If you are expecting full rating range when driving from 90-10% then you need to reset your expectations. Tesla could easily do this and jsut lock off the top and bottom and then you'd just charge to 100% all the time. But then you'd be paying for a lot of battery that you wouldn't be able to use. Tesla decided to go with the "here is the max range you get" option which is what they are allowed to do. Again, if you have a problem with that logic, you need to petition the EPA for different testing and reporting requirements.
As far as comparing cars, I test drove an ID.4 and it left a lot to be desired. Drive ability wise and usability wise. If you are looking for a basic get from point A to point B electric people mover then it is a great car for that purpose. My wife and I were very unimpressed (and she was an early reservation holder and prior VW owner) and immediately canceled her reservation (during the test drive) and ended up buying a SR Y. We have regularly used it on 300+ mile roadtrips and find that stopping every 2 hours to charge is no problem whatsoever. With an ID.4, we might not need to stop as often but we'd need to be able to stretch distance between stops because of the lack of DCFC for non-Teslas.
TeslaFi
kWh added - 282.64 (324.87 Wh/mile)
kWh used- 295.24 (339.36 Wh/mile)
Car (lifetime trip counter)
231 kWh used (265.52 Wh/mile)
According to EPA it is rated at 270 Wh/mile so it meets that criteria. However, there is much more consumption outside of while driving. If you do any preconditioning or defrosting or updating that is all non-driving power usage which Tesla doesn't track in the vehicle. And not tracked via EPA either. It has been cold here pretty must every morning so I have to run car defrost for 5-10 minutes before driving (car parked outside) so I anticipate non-driving usage dropping as the weather warms.
Edmunds has been constantly updated and they retested since originally they just stopped when the car said 0 miles left. Tesla told them they needed to keep driving until the car shut down. For LR they added something like 22 miles from 0 to shutdown with the new method. Keep in mind, ranges are from 100% to shutdown. If you are expecting full rating range when driving from 90-10% then you need to reset your expectations. Tesla could easily do this and jsut lock off the top and bottom and then you'd just charge to 100% all the time. But then you'd be paying for a lot of battery that you wouldn't be able to use. Tesla decided to go with the "here is the max range you get" option which is what they are allowed to do. Again, if you have a problem with that logic, you need to petition the EPA for different testing and reporting requirements.
As far as comparing cars, I test drove an ID.4 and it left a lot to be desired. Drive ability wise and usability wise. If you are looking for a basic get from point A to point B electric people mover then it is a great car for that purpose. My wife and I were very unimpressed (and she was an early reservation holder and prior VW owner) and immediately canceled her reservation (during the test drive) and ended up buying a SR Y. We have regularly used it on 300+ mile roadtrips and find that stopping every 2 hours to charge is no problem whatsoever. With an ID.4, we might not need to stop as often but we'd need to be able to stretch distance between stops because of the lack of DCFC for non-Teslas.
Again. Not trying to say the id4 is a better car. I don't think so either, having both. Not even trying to say that the id4 had more range than my MY. Only saying that in every day driving, real world stuff with highways, our Id4 gets higher than projected range, and our Tesla gets lower. That's it. That's all I'm saying
Since I signed up for Teslafi I have driven 9,763 miles (drove 600 miles before signing up).
Teslafi (9,763 miles):
kWh added - 2,947 (302 Wh/mi)
kWh used - 2,594 (266 Wh/mi)
Car (10,373 miles)
2783 kWh used (268 Wh/mi)
My driving is a lot of 50 mile commutes mixed with 670 mile road trips (10 or 11).
Interestingly, the car sticker said 270 Wh/mi.
You are doing well. I have a 2021 long range Y and I’m getting just around 200 miles on an extrapolated 100% charge in the winter. In the spring without a/c or heat I can get around 250 miles on a full 100% charge.
Mrbrock
Well-Known Member
Understood. So you aren't talking about EPA numbers or anything like that, just want the car dash says?
mstatkus
Member
You are also typically living in the 20-80% world on road trips. ~2-3hrs of driving. Even if I got 318 on a charge in 4 hours I’d have to drive 80mph and I better end up at a destination charger lol. Possibly an adult diaper.
Getting away from the comparisons with other cars and even honestly the fact that this is for a Tesla, my question that led me to this thread is really why the EPA is inconsistent even between it’s own efficiency numbers. I get it that at 234ish Wh/Mi it works out to 330 miles of range, and I also get that people will probably see more like 270 Wh/Mi in the real world. But it’s confusing from the EPA’s standpoint to list both 28 kWh/100 Mi and 330 miles range right next to each other.
This isn’t a complaint about either the theoretical or reality, just confusing why they’re right next to each other without any sort of indication as to why they’re different.
This isn’t a complaint about either the theoretical or reality, just confusing why they’re right next to each other without any sort of indication as to why they’re different.
No. Just saying that my iD4 gets better than it's advertised EPA range in real world, regular driving...routinely. My Tesla never even approaches its advertised EPA range, in real world, regular driving. Ever. It's quite frustrating.
This comes from a frustrating thing with the EPA. They allow auto makers to choose between two very different methods. This doesn't make much sense and causes this kind of confusion. All of the other auto makers choose the more conservative one that shows lower numbers, so people beat it frequently in real life. Tesla chooses the other method, which shows higher numbers, but it harder to match.
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