How Aggressive Should Tesla Be with Variable Pricing to Manage Supercharger Congestion? (i.e. Should Tesla jack rates at chronically congested SCers?)

[houstonian]

Tough question here gang - basically boils down to if Tesla should add a congestion premium to chronically congested superchargers, and if so, what should the limit be, if any, on such a premium?

I don't know of a clear definition for 'chronically congested' but would suggest if a supercharger is at 75%+ usage for 50%+ of the time in a 24 hour cycle, it probably would at least start to meet this definition.

I'll also add a published model of charging costs seems appropriate vs a 'we'll tell you what it'll cost when you get there' is the way to go and any change Tesla makes to charging costs should have a minimum phase in period (i.e. if Tesla decides to add a congestion surcharge, they need to give at least 72hrs, or more, notice).

The benefit for EV drivers - and not just Tesla drivers seeing as how others are jumping onto NACS - is load shifting away from busy SC locations...ideally to less congested locations, or even better, to at-residence L2.

From Tesla's perspective one hopes the extra $'s gained from congestion surcharges would be allocated to building out more locations and or adding capacity at existing ones. Adding capacity, be it new SC'ers from Tesla or individuals installing their own L2 solutions, ideally would serve to reduce congestion and in turn allow for the removal of the congestion surcharge.

Obviously those with some form of FUSC are not going to be sensitive to costs but curious to hear their thoughts - hence the bifurcation of the poll bands to account for this.

 

[ucmndd]

Generally speaking, I’m not a fan of demand pricing as a lever to control congestion.

Pass on TOU charges to the consumer commensurate with what you pay to the utility - that makes perfect sense. But artificially charging more to discourage charging when people want it is not a long term solution that people are going to get on board with. I don’t pay 50% more for gasoline if I want to fill up at 4pm. This stuff matters to people, even if it’s irrational. If a site is perpetually congested, it needs more capacity. If a site is occasionally congested at peak times, the queue length becomes the natural regulating mechanism between people who need to charge and those who might just want to.

FWIW I have free supercharging but have not voted in the poll.

 

[Unclepaul]

Only Tesla has the data necessary to determing what pricing variations will be best to smooth out demand.

 

[houstonian]

Generally speaking, I’m not a fan of demand pricing as a lever to control congestion.

Pass on TOU charges to the consumer commensurate with what you pay to the utility - that makes perfect sense. But artificially charging more to discourage charging when people want it is not a long term solution that people are going to get on board with. I don’t pay 50% more for gasoline if I want to fill up at 4pm. This stuff matters to people, even if it’s irrational. If a site is perpetually congested, it needs more capacity. If a site is occasionally congested at peak times, the queue length becomes the natural regulating mechanism between people who need to charge and those who might just want to.

@ucmndd - would your calculus change if another station existed within a 15min drive with surplus capacity?

In Houston there's a woefully undersized 8-stall V3 SC'er close to the city center in the lot of a popular local grocer.

This location tends to chronically congested with utilization approaching 100% around 10am and staying high until midnight, or later. I should also note a new 35 bay V3 SCer just opened in the same general area, about a 15min drive to the north.

Clearly the addition of more bays at the crowded location is the ideal solution but in this case the lot is already busy and I suspect HEB is not keen to allocate more spots to charging. Hence a capacity constraint from the host.

There are two more locations in the works for the general area but for today - right now - there's a material amount of unused demand at a nearby location which seems well positioned to relieve the congestion of the crowded one...will even add the new one is built on top of a grocery store too, so people looking to charge and shop can do so at either location.

This scenario seems like an ideal use for price to encourage demand to use the spare capacity of the larger station and forgo the line of the congested one. Would also suggest some form of price mechanism may be warranted here as the time aspect does not appear to be enough to self-correct the imbalance.

FWIW I have free supercharging but have not voted in the poll.

Guessing you caught it but the first two options account for the 'no-congestion-surcharge' preference, should you wish to vote.

 

[ucmndd]

@ucmndd - would your calculus change if another station existed within a 15min drive with surplus capacity?

In Houston there's a woefully undersized 8-stall V3 SC'er close to the city center in the lot of a popular local grocer.

This is a good example and one I’m familiar with as we have a perpetually congested 8 stall v3 site in a popular retail area nearby. I’m not convinced significant demand charges would actually make a difference.

I regularly charge here opportunistically if I’m in the area. It’s free for me, so why not? If there’s a line I’ll pass - not worth my time. Selfishly, if demand charges kept a bunch of pay as you go drivers away so I could roll up whenever I wanted with my free supercharging, then that benefits me. But does it actually reduce congestion in any meaningful way? I’m not so sure. Plenty of folks around like me who would plug in given the opportunity to take advantage of their free charging.

This might be more impactful if there wasn’t a significant portion of the fleet that charges for free. But in the example you give above, I think the only practical impact is you make the site more available for people who aren’t paying anyway. And again, the queue length becomes self regulating.

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

If there are 2 locations close enough (10-15 minutes) to each other then I do think there should be a tiny incentive to use the underutilized location. 25% seems about right for someone to ponder why this station is 56cents for 45center down the roads but not enough to think they are being price gouged.

If there isn't a close alternative then I think the SuC should have the normal pricing even if it is a chronically congested.

FYI: I have FUSC on my main 'away from home' travel vehicle.

 

[zoomer0056]

Congestion is self managing.

 

[NV Ray]

OK if I copy and past your poll to a Facebook Group I created/manage?

 

[houstonian]

Congestion is self managing.

By the same logic are not all things self managing?

Not saying congestion is not self managing but the tools we drivers use to manage congestion need to provide feedback and signals to help drivers choose where to charge. I think there's an argument one such tool is price signal. By no means the only tool nor do I think it by itself is sufficient to shift all the demand, but I'd guess it is one of the most effective tools Tesla holds in their arsenal.

I'd worry "Congestion is self managing" dose not capture the nuance of the dynamics at play and, at best, hints at a simple understanding of a complex situation.

OK if I copy and past your poll to a Facebook Group I created/manage?

Feel free to.

 

[zoomer0056]

tools we drivers use to manage congestion need to provide feedback and signals to help drivers choose where to charge.

Use the navigation and charger information already available on screen. It shows how many chargers are available. It also shows what the wait times are.

 

[lensovet]

Congestion pricing is a way to reduce traffic in city centers

Tolls are a way to reduce congestion on highways

This isn't rocket science. I absolutely do think Tesla should more aggressively adjust pricing to more evenly distribute demand. The example you provided is an excellent illustration of why that's needed.

They should update the nav too so that it would prioritize charging at less busy chargers (based on both live demand and forecasted demand based on your ETA) and prompt you to charge at a different location if you manually pick an overloaded location.

 

[E90alex]

It doesn’t seem to work in practice. I have two superchargers within 10-15 min of me. Both are 16 stall V3 stations. One is almost always full or near full and peak rates are $0.50/kWh. The second one is newer, about 5 minutes away from the first one and is $0.34/kWh.

It has done nothing to relieve the demand at the first one. It’s still as busy as ever. The second cheaper one doesn’t even get half full during peak times.

People will just go to where it’s most convenient for them and not think about the cost. Or they see $0.50 vs $0.34 and think that’s both so cheap, I don’t care if I go to the more expensive one.

But in reality that’s like a $30 vs $20 session from 10-80%. Yet at the same time people, will absolutely go out of their way and wait 20 min in line at Costco gas to save 16 cents a gallon. Which amounts to like $2-3 savings in most cars.

 

[lensovet]

Well maybe the disparity needs to be higher. What if the busier station was $1/kwh?

 

[E90alex]

Well maybe the disparity needs to be higher. What if the busier station was $1/kwh?

Maybe. But at that point you’re getting more expensive than gasoline which will start to hinder EV adoption as fuel savings is one of the major selling points of EVs.

But also with how seamless supercharging is, people don’t really pay attention to the cost. They just plug in and it gets billed automatically and they don’t see it. They just figure no matter what it is, it’s still cheaper than gas.

It’s like automatic bill pay or subscription services. You’re not actively paying it so you’re less likely to pay attention to the cost. It just works in the background and the money gets charged to your credit card and you can still afford to pay your credit card off every month so you don’t think twice about it.

 

[Wattsisname]

Tough question here gang - basically boils down to if Tesla should add a congestion premium to chronically congested superchargers, and if so, what should the limit be, if any, on such a premium?

I don't know of a clear definition for 'chronically congested' but would suggest if a supercharger is at 75%+ usage for 50%+ of the time in a 24 hour cycle, it probably would at least start to meet this definition.

I'll also add a published model of charging costs seems appropriate vs a 'we'll tell you what it'll cost when you get there' is the way to go and any change Tesla makes to charging costs should have a minimum phase in period (i.e. if Tesla decides to add a congestion surcharge, they need to give at least 72hrs, or more, notice).

The benefit for EV drivers - and not just Tesla drivers seeing as how others are jumping onto NACS - is load shifting away from busy SC locations...ideally to less congested locations, or even better, to at-residence L2.

From Tesla's perspective one hopes the extra $'s gained from congestion surcharges would be allocated to building out more locations and or adding capacity at existing ones. Adding capacity, be it new SC'ers from Tesla or individuals installing their own L2 solutions, ideally would serve to reduce congestion and in turn allow for the removal of the congestion surcharge.

Obviously those with some form of FUSC are not going to be sensitive to costs but curious to hear their thoughts - hence the bifurcation of the poll bands to account for this.

Just build more chargers! We pay sufficient already.
Reminds me of a Turkeys voting for a Christmas or Thanksgiving choice.

 

[E90alex]

There either needs to be more fast charging capacity or collectively infrastructure needs to be built out in other ways so people don’t need to fast charge constantly. Namely increase options for work place and residential charging, especially for multi family housing and rental housing. There also needs to be more public L2 charging where people might spends hours of time like malls, shopping centers, restaurants, movie theaters, street parking meters, etc.

Supercharging was supposed to be for long distance interstate travel, not to be relied on as a replacement for home charging.

 

[zoomer0056]

Well maybe the disparity needs to be higher. What if the busier station was $1/kwh?

This great disparity will cause disproportionate use by controlling where some can charge and won't limit use. Not needed, use is already self regulated by the very same congestion that some want to control. Also, raising the price to see how much the market will handle ... this is basic capitalism.

 

[FastEddieB]

They should update the nav too so that it would prioritize charging at less busy chargers (based on both live demand and forecasted demand based on your ETA) and prompt you to charge at a different location if you manually pick an overloaded location.

I was under the impression the nav software already did that. Not 100% sure, but it seems that I’ve been rerouted to a different SC with range remaining not being the apparent factor. I assumed I was being steered away from a congested SC.

I think letting the software handle it is far superior to making owners weigh cost/benefit analysis every time they choose a SC.

As a side note, over many, many road trips we’ve yet to have to wait at a SC. Have seen the timer icon 3 times - once in Sarasota and twice in Ontario, Canada - but every time there was a stall available by the time we pulled up. Once, in Pembroke Pines, FL we saw someone waiting, and as a courtesy we cut our charging just a bit short as we already had a comfortable cushion to our next SC stop.

 

[zoomer0056]

Well maybe the disparity needs to be higher. What if the busier station was $1/kwh?

Here's another silly proposal. Instead of stop sale tactics, have roving blue light specials.

 

[Earl]

I think most of this thread is grousing about having to pay more for something they feel entitled to having for cheaper because that's what they used to get. I really believe that the pricing increases mostly reflect the increased cost of service between the higher costs of late-afternoon/early-evening electricity when most people are charging, as well as the cost to build 2X more chargers because most folks prefer to charge at the same time.
When my home electric rates more than doubled from $0.12/KWh at night and $0.24 during the day (when I'm producing with solar) to $0.65/KWh (more if I exceed some baseline they set) from 5:00 to 8:00 pm, then $0.28 the rest of the time. This basically reflects the "Solar Duck Curve" where electricity demand is high, yet solar production is waning due to the sun setting. It really isn't unreasonable.
I had to rearranged my charging schedule.
Those who haven't bothered to acquire their own home or work charging can expect to have to change their behavior as well or pay a lot more since that 5:00 to 8:00 pm tends to be the peak time folks who use Superchargers for all their charging, tend to want to use them.
The cost to install more chargers even though they will be lightly used most of the time is also a true additional cost.
It isn't all just to incentivize charging a times with lower congestion. As @zoomer0056 pointed out that congestion doesn't completely need meddling because:

use is already self regulated by the very same congestion that some want to control.