How many potential buyers worry about roadtrips?

[Great Dane]

Love the Kramer style comment ! ( wonder how many people did not get the reference ) Seinfeld, the Tesla of sitcoms.
that needle is almost broken off from being so empty
love that is says range low like an EV

 

[Clprenz]

Honestly, I think that anyone who gets an 85 is at some point excited about traveling across country without spending any money on transportation! I know that my family would be very excited to take Model S using the Superchargers. It isn't a matter of people being nervous about the superchargers- it is getting them to just know about them!

 

[russman]

I'll be one of the few people who does have concerns. I have about 7,000 miles after 5 months of ownership. I drive the car pretty much every day and I love it. I do find that I definitely don't get what I feel is near rated range and I don't even think I get the 20% buffer I give myself. A 90% charge puts my car at 237 miles, so I view the 37 miles as my 20% buffer so I should be able to drive 200 miles freely. The car says the average wh/mi is 335 and as I watch when I drive the trip meter since last charge hovers around 330-350 wh/mi. So my actual miles driven is much less than what is ticked away from the rated miles, but it's more than I was expecting, as I add the actual miles driven to the remaining rated miles and I'm far off from what I started with. (not sure if that makes sense).

So I'm considering a road trip from Northern CA to Southern CA, but I tend not to drive slow, so I'm concerned what my actual mileage will be from the 257 range charge when I'm averaging a long distance at 80+ mph + headwind + hills, etc..

The things that worry me:
- real distance on range charge at 80+ mph
- distance between SCs and even from NorCal to So Cal, they are pretty close.
- Being iced at a SC
- SC crowding just because of all the Tesla's on the west coast
- SC performance (the one time I used a SC was at the Fremont location and it was painfully slow. I believe an HWPC would have charged me faster, I ended up disconnecting and charging at a Tesla Store.
- destination charging (I've asked someone in LA to install a 14-50 outlet, so I could charge near them since there wasn't any other option near by.)

Again, this may all just be in my head and once I do the trip, it will not be a big deal, but it does sit in the back of my mind.

The good news is, without this car, driving without paying for gas would never have been an option.

 

[MikeC]

Model S roadtrips are the best. I've taken separate trips to Vancouver, Portland, and Denver, along with shorter trips. I would not even have considered doing that in an ICE. I've never had a problem with a Supercharger (current count is 32) and can't remember ever having to wait for one.

 

[aviators99]

Before Superchargers existed I drove my Model S from Miami to Tampa and Miami or Orlando several round trips. I needed to keep the speed down (to around 65) in order to make it. Now there are Superchargers about half way to both of those destinations. This brings up a decision. I can drive much faster now because of the Superchargers. So that is what I do. Of course, as you probably realize, it's a longer trip when I go faster and stop at the Supercharger! But it's somehow more enjoyable...not sure why, when I think about it logically. It might also have to do with the 25% discount at Friday's at the Port St. Lucie Supercharger for Tesla owners!

Both methods are fun. The Supercharger is fun for me because of my amazement at the technology, and the wife and kids think of it more like a normal road trip in an ICE, with a stop for lunch. Doing it without the Supercharger is fun for me because I have to carefully plan out the route and consider wind direction, just like when I'm flight planning.

 

[omarsultan]

The car says the average wh/mi is 335

- real distance on range charge at 80+ mph

So, 335 is kinda high, rated range is based on ~300Wh/mi and driving 80+ is not going to do you any favors with range. To get a better feel for how you are doing during a trip, pull up the energy app and put it in 30-mile/average mode. The moving average line will tell you how you are doing related to rated range (i.e. if you line is above the dotted line, your burn rate is higher and you'll get less than rated range). If you keep the energy app on the main display, at the very right, it will give you a fairly reasonable approximation of your predicted range, as long as the road ahead looks like the road behind (elevation, wind, etc).

The point is not to get you to drive slowly just for the sake of range, but to give you better data so there is less worry in the whole process.

 

[ThosEM]

This mindset continually boggles my mind. Someone won't stop for ~45 minutes on a trip like this to charge because time is so precious, but they'll spend 7 hours driving rather than 4 hours on a flight...just mind boggling.

I was talking to one guy who makes a long trip regularly, like 700 miles in a single day and said that the time spent charging would be a deal breaker. I asked why he doesn't fly and his response is that's it's cheaper to drive. So, he'll spend 11-12 hours on the road, taking 6-7 hours longer than a flight each way to save maybe $200 (plane tickets for 2), but spending an extra 90 minutes charging to save $100 of fuel is a deal breaker.

*my head then explodes*

I can identify with this, as we do that kind of traveling, and have traded it off against flying on occasion. Still, we bought into the Tesla Model S in part because it is capable of road trips.

Keep in mind that one often needs a car at the destination, and rentals add substantially to the total cost. Not to mention one may be hauling a fair amount of stuff that is not readily accommodated on an airplane. Still it is worth the extra hour or so for us to enjoy the benefits of an electric car. Not to mention that we are willing to make reasonable personal compromises in pursuit of a "greener" lifestyle; especially if those compromises involve stopping to smell the flowers.

Let's admit that cheaper bigger batteries will be nice when they arrive. Meanwhile, there will be those who value their personal convenience above any other consideration. For them, it may help to point out that there is much value in having our own private filling stations, where we can go in peace and isolation from the dirt, smells, junky food, and general squalor of most gasoline stations.

 

[trigga71]

Similar complaints can be made for ICE, They want to go longer on one tank, they want to refuel faster and they all want to do it cheaper.

For most people a Supercharger/charging station will be on the route as people tend to go to well known and traveled areas. It would be nice for the owner to decide when and where to stop, but even ICE drivers run out of gas and have to walk and gas stations are everywhere.

I have had my S for basically 4 months (on aug 2) and now have 17,649 miles. I have charged at many public areas and used at least 8-10 different superchargers. In my 60 I think I can get about 190 real world miles. Just as with ICE many factors play into what you'll actually get the ONLY factor is right now everyones KNOWS a gas station is near by, but the opposite is true for EV stations even if untrue.

 

[sublimaze1]

Valid Thread. My personal $0.02

- Did a trip from McKinney TX to League City TX (303.6 miles) in my 85 in Dec 2012. That was, in a phrase, harrowing. Hypermiling, pre-eco saving software, no SC, one Blink station that was useful in The Woodlands. Arrived in LC with 0 miles (in fact, had 0 miles and a red bar for the last 6 miles). Had a ticked off wife. Cranky girls in the back. Striking.

(So I would say, yes, this was a stressful and "worried about" roadtrip).

Did not repeat a road trip until the Huntsville SC was in place and then, I can say, my worries have minimalized to almost zero. In fact, it is not uncommon for us to bust over to hill country (Boerne, Fredericksburg, Wimberly) for weekend relaxation and with the San Marcos SC, if we don't get enough 110, we bust over there easily (she really hates the outlets).

My next roadtrip will be my most major undertaking and will be from McKinney to Tampa in March of 2015 - I45/I10/I75 - when those SC are online. As I have pushed BadA** to the limit on range a dozen times and have had my share of stress. The only thing that concerns me is the ICEing of the SC, but that is why this trip will be with me and my brother; we are going to see grapefruit ball; we are sans kids and sans spouses; we have a tube of Krazy Glue.

 

[Toyolla2]

trigga, as an investor, I am posting to comment on the mileage you are putting on your car (with 60Kwhr pack). 17k in 4 months is 50k per year.

It used to be that 100k miles severely impacted the residual price on resale which in your case is coming within two years. However I have read several articles which suggest that today's vehicles should manage 300k miles but that still depends on whether buyers will accept that argument. Regular use of electrics and superchargers is a new scenario and the prediction here is to expect a 15% range degradation per year with superchargers. Not to rain on anyone's parade here but at some point range will have depleted to the extent that you may find you are pulling up to the supercharger a little too frequently. There comes a point and it may arrive a little premature in your case where the vehicle though able to perform its 0 to 60 ramp as usual would no longer be considered useable for long trips. Thoughts ?

 

[tomas]

Actual experience noted repeatedly on this forum is that range degradation is minimal. There are now MS approaching 2 years, many with 50k or more miles and some with hundreds of SC visits. I have yet to hear of any degradation above 10% total, and it all seems to happen in first year, after that: none. 15% per year is ludicrous. Also roadsters have been out there for 5+ years and are not reporting significant degradation. Where you getting this fiction????!

 

[trigga71]

trigga, as an investor, I am posting to comment on the mileage you are putting on your car (with 60Kwhr pack). 17k in 4 months is 50k per year.

It used to be that 100k miles severely impacted the residual price on resale which in your case is coming within two years. However I have read several articles which suggest that today's vehicles should manage 300k miles but that still depends on whether buyers will accept that argument. Regular use of electrics and superchargers is a new scenario and the prediction here is to expect a 15% range degradation per year with superchargers. Not to rain on anyone's parade here but at some point range will have depleted to the extent that you may find you are pulling up to the supercharger a little too frequently. There comes a point and it may arrive a little premature in your case where the vehicle though able to perform its 0 to 60 ramp as usual would no longer be considered useable for long trips. Thoughts ?

I can't really say about resell value. The good thing is battery upgrades for the same or more range. But since I deal with electronics I see resell value fall for most things like computers, game consoles, and phones. Buy too soon and you over paid buy too late and the next model is cheaper and has new features and the old model value drops more. EVs are a bit different but the resell values of the 2011-12 Nissan LEAF have dropped. I think mainly because faster charging and battery changes introduced in 2013 but also the normal car changes like remote charge port and options that are now standard so the new model year(s) being over all more desirable. Oh and they introduced a cheaper model which undermines the current used market for that car. Like if Telsa brought back the 40 but with the 60KwH battery, yes people that couldn't afford the 60 or 85 would love it but it would bring down the values of the current cars because its essentially the same car and if needed could later get a 60. Which Tesla and 60 owners would hope nobody figured out a hack to enable the extra capacity.

As far as the degradations goes I have read its minimal. BUT batteries are finicky. One could just go out so degradation didn't play any real roll to the car now being a big brick. And for those with a short commute it wouldn't be a daily issue nor may the owner even realize its happened. I think they big change needs to come in easily found facts, in this case on Tesla website that states how many packs were bad, how many saw degradation and how much and also how many still have original battery pack with the miles listed. Even in my Prius that had around 300k miles people always asked how much it cost me to replace the battery and when I told them I hadn't replaced it they were in total shock. They just presume the battery has to have been replaced at that mileage (BTW my resell value on that car was fantastic!).

 

[callmesam]

OP:

The joy of the "free" trip is incredibly satisfying.

Try it.

___________

To other road-trippers, hat's off.

We are in the infancy of adventure travel with Teslas.

Just this Spring, I traveled coast to coast on Superchargers in 9 days.

3.5 days on DC to LA.

In a 60.

Embrace the adventure.

 

[mgboyes]

trigga, as an investor, I am posting to comment on the mileage you are putting on your car (with 60Kwhr pack). 17k in 4 months is 50k per year.

It used to be that 100k miles severely impacted the residual price on resale which in your case is coming within two years. However I have read several articles which suggest that today's vehicles should manage 300k miles but that still depends on whether buyers will accept that argument. Regular use of electrics and superchargers is a new scenario and the prediction here is to expect a 15% range degradation per year with superchargers. Not to rain on anyone's parade here but at some point range will have depleted to the extent that you may find you are pulling up to the supercharger a little too frequently. There comes a point and it may arrive a little premature in your case where the vehicle though able to perform its 0 to 60 ramp as usual would no longer be considered useable for long trips. Thoughts ?

Obvious troll is obvious.

Nobody is reporting supercharger-related rapid degradation. Elon has been very clear that people should user superchargers as much and as often as they like with no ill-effects expected. In London where lots of people don't have off street parking Tesla are installing inner-city Superchargers with the expectation that some owners will exclusively use those to refill their cars.

 

[CHGolferJim]

a 15% range degradation per year with superchargers.

Yikes, this is the first time I've seen this comment in 6 months of heavy reading of this site. Is that the consensus view?

 

[ggr]

Yikes, this is the first time I've seen this comment in 4 months of heavy reading of this site. Is that the consensus view?

No, that is the opposite of the consensus.

 

[wk057]

If the batteries degraded 15% per year then Roadster owners would be totally screwed by now. You'd be talking max charges of only double digit rated miles by now for some if that were the case.
But this is the opposite of reality, fortunately, and the batteries do not degrade substantially.

I personally just lost my first rated mile on a range charge, though... at just over 15k miles. So lets see... thats a 0.38% loss in range after 15,000 miles.

If I extrapolate that out to 250,000 miles that comes to a loss of about 6% range, or about 17 rated miles, at that time... I'm quite fine with that. And assuming I still have my Model S by then I'll still be just as happy with it I'm sure.

 

[mgboyes]

If the batteries degraded 15% per year then Roadster owners would be totally screwed by now. You'd be talking max charges of only double digit rated miles by now for some if that were the case.
But this is the opposite of reality, fortunately, and the batteries do not degrade substantially.

I personally just lost my first rated mile on a range charge, though... at just over 15k miles. So lets see... thats a 0.38% loss in range after 15,000 miles.

If I extrapolate that out to 250,000 miles that comes to a loss of about 6% range, or about 17 rated miles, at that time... I'm quite fine with that. And assuming I still have my Model S by then I'll still be just as happy with it I'm sure.

The claim made was that supercharging causes a 15% annual degradation. Roadsters can't supercharge.

However it is still a nonsense claim with no source or evidence to back it up.

 

[TexasEV]

trigga, as an investor, I am posting to comment on the mileage you are putting on your car (with 60Kwhr pack). 17k in 4 months is 50k per year.

It used to be that 100k miles severely impacted the residual price on resale which in your case is coming within two years. However I have read several articles which suggest that today's vehicles should manage 300k miles but that still depends on whether buyers will accept that argument. Regular use of electrics and superchargers is a new scenario and the prediction here is to expect a 15% range degradation per year with superchargers. Not to rain on anyone's parade here but at some point range will have depleted to the extent that you may find you are pulling up to the supercharger a little too frequently. There comes a point and it may arrive a little premature in your case where the vehicle though able to perform its 0 to 60 ramp as usual would no longer be considered useable for long trips. Thoughts ?

This is obviously a troll or someone who is grossly misinformed. "Prediction here is to expect..." Prediction where? No one has reported anything anywhere near that. At TMC Connect it was reported from a battery survey that a Model S with 75,000 miles driven had 88% of original range.

 

[DieAbetic]

To jump back on topic here: I have an S60 delivery in October.

The family on the east coast (Virginia) is giving the wife and I hell about coming back this year for Christmas. I'm not worried about it, I know it can be done (several people have already done it in a 60) . I would like it if I can take a southern route through Texas to VA Beach area. That's a more direct route from southern California and won't take me 4-5 days.

Crossing fingers the "coming soon/2014" southern area plans on Tesla's website are built by mid December.