How Secure is the Key Card?

[davedavedave]

Not quite, he wrote
"We've had a keypad lock on our house and rentals for years, and when we got a new place we immediately put them in again."

And he mentioned letting in family members. So he was definitely talking about his own house as well. Of course with rental properties such systems will come in handy, but I would never install something like this in my own home.

Hypothetical scenario: You invite friends and family to meet at your beach rental property for the weekend, 4 hours away. By happen stance, your elderly relatives arrive hours earlier, in the rain. Thankfully, your keyless entry allows them to gain shelter and relax.

Is that really so bad? I've had many similar experiences since going keyless several years ago.

It seems to me that you are jumping to conclusions about people's entire character based on assumptions of how you imagine that they they use their technology.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Not quite, he wrote
"We've had a keypad lock on our house and rentals for years, and when we got a new place we immediately put them in again."

And he mentioned letting in family members. So he was definitely talking about his own house as well. Of course with rental properties such systems will come in handy, but I would never install something like this in my own home.

It really depends. We are what are called "townies" where I live. My father has worked for the town for 30 years and has lived in town for 50+.

I moved away as a young adult and came back...but everyone knows everyone. If my plumber, who is also my neighbor, needs to get into my house to install my gas stove next week, he'll get a code that's good for a 3 hour window to access our smart-lock.

 

[DarthPierce]

Well, one quick example for the use of our keypad is that some friends who have been travelling for a year are going to stay with us for a couple weeks. They will be arriving while we are out of town. We can:

A: Give them our keypad # and let them have the house to themselves for a few days while we're out
B: Hide a key someplace and hope they can find it but no one else can
C: Cancel our trip and give them a key
D: Tell them 'sorry, find a hotel for a couple days'

Hmm.... Good thing we have option A

 

[daniel]

... how long will the reception distance of the BT sensor be? If I park at our grocery store, get out and walk away, the car supposedly locks. I will have to believe it because I can't check, for as soon as I approach it will automatically open again. But now I enter the grocery store and walk along the aisle which is next to the wall that my car is parked next to*. Will the BT module have a reach far enough to make the car unlock itself because I am just a few feet away, but inside a building? This scenario will apply to any time I am somewhere near the car, but physically separated by building walls. Happens all the time during shopping, at the bank, while eating out, etc.
I am really concerned about this. Brings me back to wishing for an old school style key solution.

*remember over here we have lots of stores with parking spaces right next to the wall of the building, unlike the US where you have to take a golf cart from your parking spot on the vast car park to just get to the store entrance

Others have said this won't be a problem because key fobs do the same thing. But you are right and they are wrong: Bluetooth has a much longer range than a key fob. Not only will your car unlock any time your phone is within Bluetooth range, but if the mirrors fold in and out, it will effectively signal to any thieves close by that the car has unlocked.

Also, Bluetooth uses battery, so merely owning a Model 3 will shorten the battery life of your phone. My solution will probably be to turn off BT, leave the phone in the car as I do now, and use the key card instead. The best system I've had is on my Prius: The door unlocks when anyone touches the inside of the door handle, or lifts on the tailgate, while the key fob is nearby. And it has to be pretty close. It locks when anyone presses the little button, again with the key fob nearby.

I'm sure I'll get used to this, and I'll love the car. But I really think Tesla has made it more difficult by going high-tech for a function that is better with low-tech. I wonder how long it will be before someone is locked out of their car by a malfunction in the RFID reader and not having their phone handy. The phone is so much bigger than a fob that it's more of a nuisance to carry around. And, no, not all of us have our phone tethered to our body 24/7. I mostly use my phone to make phone calls, and often do not have it with me when I'm not expecting a call and don't intend to make a call.

 

[DR61]

Not only will your car unlock any time your phone is within Bluetooth range, but if the mirrors fold in and out, it will effectively signal to any thieves close by that the car has unlocked.

Have you confirmed on an actual Model 3 that the implementation is actually long range BT like you describe? And that the mirrors unfold before the door handle is moved?

 

[gregincal]

Others have said this won't be a problem because key fobs do the same thing. But you are right and they are wrong: Bluetooth has a much longer range than a key fob.

The Model X key fob uses Bluetooth already, so no it isn't different. Unlocking is based on proximity detection, not maximum bluetooth range.

Also, Bluetooth uses battery, so merely owning a Model 3 will shorten the battery life of your phone.

Given that the bluetooth based key fob can run for a year on a battery, no it doesn't take much power.

 

[daniel]

Have you confirmed on an actual Model 3 that the implementation is actually long range BT like you describe? And that the mirrors unfold before the door handle is moved?

No, I have not. I just assumed that Bluetooth is Bluetooth. How would it even distinguish between a strong BT transmitter far away and a weak one close up?

I'd really like to hear from an owner: How far away are you when the car locks? And how far away when it unlocks? My BT devices at home operate far enough away that I would not expect to hear the car make its locking sound, and I'd always be wondering if it really locked. Up until now I've always locked my cars while I'm standing right at them, and I can hear them lock.

 

[daniel]

Given that the bluetooth based key fob can run for a year on a battery, no it doesn't take much power.

The BT fob does not use much power because it is a low-power BT. A phone uses a higher-power BT so that it can remain connected when it's farther from a device.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

The BT fob does not use much power because it is a low-power BT. A phone uses a higher-power BT so that it can remain connected when it's farther from a device.

but newer phones have BLE...just like fobs. the app itself hardcodes which Bluetooth setup the phone should be using for connectivity.

 

[gregincal]

The BT fob does not use much power because it is a low-power BT. A phone uses a higher-power BT so that it can remain connected when it's farther from a device.

I have a ton of functionality on my phone that uses BTLE. Functionality like unlocking things.

 

[DR61]

No, I have not. I just assumed that Bluetooth is Bluetooth. How would it even distinguish between a strong BT transmitter far away and a weak one close up?

From some reports it uses BLE, Bluetooth Low Energy, with proximity sensing. So we need more information.
Bluetooth Low Energy - Wikipedia

 

[Runt8]

No, I have not. I just assumed that Bluetooth is Bluetooth. How would it even distinguish between a strong BT transmitter far away and a weak one close up?

Bluetooth is most definitely not Bluetooth. Bluetooth has gone through several iterations, many of them with very different underlying technology, that are all under l “Bluetooth” umbrella. All modern smartphones support Bluetooth low energy, which takes very little power. It also supports the ability to figure out rough distance between devices.

 

[david_42]

My wife has a smartphone, I don't. Since our Model 3 will be her daily driver, no problem. In fact, it will be a rare occasion for me to be driving it without her onboard. A physical key would be much better for me, but if the B-column sensor is at the right height, I should be able to 'bump' start the car (my wallet is on my belt).

I do wonder how difficult it will be to spoof the card. NCF has a range of only 20 cm, maybe spoofing isn't a problem.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Others have said this won't be a problem because key fobs do the same thing. But you are right and they are wrong: Bluetooth has a much longer range than a key fob. Not only will your car unlock any time your phone is within Bluetooth range, but if the mirrors fold in and out, it will effectively signal to any thieves close by that the car has unlocked.

Also, Bluetooth uses battery, so merely owning a Model 3 will shorten the battery life of your phone. My solution will probably be to turn off BT, leave the phone in the car as I do now, and use the key card instead. The best system I've had is on my Prius: The door unlocks when anyone touches the inside of the door handle, or lifts on the tailgate, while the key fob is nearby. And it has to be pretty close. It locks when anyone presses the little button, again with the key fob nearby.

I'm sure I'll get used to this, and I'll love the car. But I really think Tesla has made it more difficult by going high-tech for a function that is better with low-tech. I wonder how long it will be before someone is locked out of their car by a malfunction in the RFID reader and not having their phone handy. The phone is so much bigger than a fob that it's more of a nuisance to carry around. And, no, not all of us have our phone tethered to our body 24/7. I mostly use my phone to make phone calls, and often do not have it with me when I'm not expecting a call and don't intend to make a call.

This has been discussed elsewhere. The current Model S/X fobs are bluetooth already.

One thing to understand is that the bluetooth range and the auto unlock range are not the same. I don't know why people keep making that assumption. You can unlock the car by pressing the fob further way than it auto unlocks. This is because there is proximity detection when auto unlock is being used. You have to get within a certain range before it unlocks, it doesn't just unlock when there is a signal.

 

[AustinPowers]

Do we even know Model 3 will have Auto-unlock at all? Sure it's on the S and X, but wasn't the Model 3 supposed to be the lower tech Tesla? No auto-presenting door handles, no power liftgate, no auto-opening doors, ...

 

[Chewy3]

Do we even know Model 3 will have Auto-unlock at all? Sure it's on the S and X, but wasn't the Model 3 supposed to be the lower tech Tesla? No auto-presenting door handles, no power liftgate, no auto-opening doors, ...

I know there are photos of this part of the UI somewhere but I couldn't find them, so please accept this youtube video which shows 'walkup unlock' as an option:

or the user manual "supports automatic locking and unlocking"

 

[davedavedave]

The BT fob does not use much power because it is a low-power BT. A phone uses a higher-power BT so that it can remain connected when it's farther from a device.

BT LE (i.e., Bluetooth 4 Low Energy) has been in most phones since 2011, including the iPhone 4s. Bluetooth 5 with BLE is in every currently produced smartphone. BTLE and BLE both support range sensing.

No, I have not. I just assumed that Bluetooth is Bluetooth. How would it even distinguish between a strong BT transmitter far away and a weak one close up?

Using the RSSI signal strength, of course. LMGTFY There's a lot more to it, but I assure you that it IS possible, and that it's not magic.

I'm guilty of assuming things too. I can't confirm this, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and declaratively state that there's no way in heck that the Model 3's BLE proximity is going to use the maximum BLE range, for all of the problems that you and others stated. It would be foolish and dangerous, and a huge liability for Tesla. Luckily, it's actually easier to configure the range detection to a sane value of around 90cm than it is to use the maximum range - just like the key FOBs I'v been using with my Prius' for the past 11 years.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I'm guilty of assuming things too. I can't confirm this, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and declaratively state that there's no way in heck that the Model 3's BLE proximity is going to use the maximum BLE range, for all of the problems that you and others stated. It would be foolish and dangerous, and a huge liability for Tesla. Luckily, it's actually easier to configure the range detection to a sane value of around 90cm than it is to use the maximum range - just like the key FOBs I'v been using with my Prius' for the past 11 years.

To use only my anecdotal experience with another vehicle.....


Audi will sense your key's proximity to three spots on the car: each front door, and the trunk.

If you're standing next to the hood and your car is locked, no one can open your front doors or trunk.

If you have it set to unlock all doors, and you are standing next to either door, another person could open the door you're not actually standing next to.

If you have it set to unlock only the driver's door and you have a passenger, that person will not be able to unlock their door.


if you are standing next to the trunk, you can unlock the trunk, but no one can unlock either door.


The distance from each of those sensors in which they actually work is ~3 ft or less.


Again, anecdotal evidence from another OEM, but an OEM in the same market segment the Model 3 is aiming at, so I suspect Tesla won't stray too far from the experience Audi, MB, or BMW drivers currently have in this arena.

 

[daniel]

but newer phones have BLE...just like fobs. the app itself hardcodes which Bluetooth setup the phone should be using for connectivity.

Thank you to ModelNforNerd, and all of the other 53,542 people who replied to tell me the same thing, that BT has a low-power mode. This is good to know.

 

[ElectricKiwi]

Thanks for the info about the Audi. As I stated earlier and others have said here, the unlock uses BLE RSSI and therefore can be quite precise in terms of where you're standing to have the auto unlock work. This is quite a well known and understood technology in other applications. Please stop with the misinformation and fears about it working when you don't want it to.