How Secure is the Key Card?

[gregd]

What if Tesla programmed the driver door handle so a second activation opened all doors?

Since the Model 3 door handles don't appear to be touch sensitive, I'm not sure how that would work. You can press in the swivel handle, but that pops the door open. Not sure how you'd do that twice without it being awkward. Two taps of the keycard, however, could qualify.

 

[landis]

Since the Model 3 door handles don't appear to be touch sensitive, I'm not sure how that would work. You can press in the swivel handle, but that pops the door open. Not sure how you'd do that twice without it being awkward. Two taps of the keycard, however, could qualify.

Two taps of the electronic door unlatch button on INSIDE of driver door (PRIOR to closing it) would certainly work. I presume that could be a OTA firmware update.

 

[brkaus]

Phone in pocket. Touch handle and ALL the doors unlock. Bad guy gets in the passenger side...

If you have driver-door-only set to solve this issue, then you have the usability issue with having to get to the touch screen to unlock the passenger door. Etc (I won't list them all again). The "argument" has been over understanding and finding a solution to all the problems at the same time, both security and usability.

I reach in and touch “Park” which unlocks the rest of the doors. Weekends when I have the family I leave it set to all doors.

 

[gregd]

Two taps of the electronic door unlatch button on INSIDE of driver door (PRIOR to closing it) would certainly work. I presume that could be a OTA firmware update.

Interesting idea... That's accessible even with one arm occupied (e.g. holding a small child). Like.

I reach in and touch “Park” which unlocks the rest of the doors. Weekends when I have the family I leave it set to all doors.

That would seem to be a long reach and quite awkward if you don't have free mobility. Try it while holding on to a squirming child, and recall that you can't put him/her in their seat until after the button is pressed. On the cars where the driver unlocks the other doors after opening theirs, the switch is usually on the driver's door handle.

 

[ElectricKiwi]

There seems to be a lot of 'reaching' here about usability (pun intended) that discounts the problem can be solved multiple ways with the phone. The focus seems to be overwhelmingly on how to use a phone as a dumb device to replicate a keyfob, where there is a lot more you can do just within the interface of the phone to address different scenarios that a keyfob couldn't even get close to.

One just off the top of my head is I walk up to the car and unlock my phone (with an iPhone a single button press) where the app recognizes it's my car I walked up to, unlocks the driver door and pops up a prompt on screen for a second button press to unlock all doors. Hell they could even use an Apple Watch in place of a keyfob. There is probably also ways to do other things with a software based interface we haven't even thought of yet.

As to the kid problem, the above would directly address that too, just reach in your pocket and two button presses then you're putting the kid in. I think most of the griping about using a phone is missing an important bit, you can do _much_ more with a software interface to solve issues like this than you can with a static piece of hardware like a fob. It doesn't _have_ to be limited to just the phone either as a companion bit like a watch would extend what you could accomplish. The only thing you're losing is that you're used to how a keyfob works, so it's simple and familiar to you.

 

[dgpcolorado]

There seems to be a lot of 'reaching' here about usability (pun intended) that discounts the problem can be solved multiple ways with the phone. The focus seems to be overwhelmingly on how to use a phone as a dumb device to replicate a keyfob, where there is a lot more you can do just within the interface of the phone to address different scenarios that a keyfob couldn't even get close to.

One just off the top of my head is I walk up to the car and unlock my phone (with an iPhone a single button press) where the app recognizes it's my car I walked up to, unlocks the driver door and pops up a prompt on screen for a second button press to unlock all doors. Hell they could even use an Apple Watch in place of a keyfob. There is probably also ways to do other things with a software based interface we haven't even thought of yet.

As to the kid problem, the above would directly address that too, just reach in your pocket and two button presses then you're putting the kid in. I think most of the griping about using a phone is missing an important bit, you can do _much_ more with a software interface to solve issues like this than you can with a static piece of hardware like a fob. It doesn't _have_ to be limited to just the phone either as a companion bit like a watch would extend what you could accomplish. The only thing you're losing is that you're used to how a keyfob works, so it's simple and familiar to you.

I don't buy it. My phone is locked and requires a PIN to open; I am disinclined to change it because I like the security. The regular Tesla app takes some time to boot and connect to the car and if the car is asleep it takes even more time. Sometimes it won't connect at all for reasons unclear even though there should be a decent cell signal.

While I agree with some others that the BLE application could have some features running that don't need the actual main Tesla app to be used, it remains to be seen how Tesla has that feature implemented. It might be just a simple auto lock/unlock only. We shall see.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I don't buy it. My phone is locked and requires a PIN to open; I am disinclined to change it because I like the security. The regular Tesla app takes some time to boot and connect to the car and if the car is asleep it takes even more time. Sometimes it won't connect at all for reasons unclear even though there should be a decent cell signal.

While I agree with some others that the BLE application could have some features running that don't need the actual main Tesla app to be used, it remains to be seen how Tesla has that feature implemented. It might be just a simple auto lock/unlock only. We shall see.

I think we've had lots of back and forth here about one use case not necessarily being everyone's use case.

Some of us have faster phones. Some of us can unlock with a fingerprint.

The security of that is better than a PIN.

 

[daniel]

... Some of us can unlock with a fingerprint.

The security of that is better than a PIN.

I disagree. Your phone can always be unlocked with the pin. Adding fingerprint recognition creates one additional way the phone can be unlocked. It can still be unlocked with the pin. So there is no added security. There is, of course, added ease of use, which is why I use it.

... As to the kid problem, the above would directly address that too, just reach in your pocket and two button presses then you're putting the kid in...

I cannot imagine being able to reliably do anything on my phone without looking at it. The idea of being to control stuff about the car from a phone app is great. I don't think anyone here is against that. What I don't like, and I think a lot of folks will agree with me, is that they've eliminated the traditional ways of doing things before they have a replacement that addresses all the possibilities. I've had a key fob fail and had to use the mechanical key to get into a car. But the Model 3 will not have a mechanical key or a lock to put it in. Traditionally, a single button-press opens the driver's door and a double press opens all the doors. Sure, there are solutions on the app, but they are awkward. Tesla recognized that a phone will occasionally fail or run out of battery, so they have the key card. But why a card rather than a traditional fob with a key as backup? Just because they wanted to be "futuristic."

I'm sure I will love this car, but I think they went too far, too fast, in eliminating control options.

 

[roblab]

Interesting idea... That's accessible even with one arm occupied (e.g. holding a small child). Like.
That would seem to be a long reach and quite awkward if you don't have free mobility. Try it while holding on to a squirming child, and recall that you can't put him/her in their seat until after the button is pressed. On the cars where the driver unlocks the other doors after opening theirs, the switch is usually on the driver's door handle.

This is why Ford put a sensor under the rear bumper, because people insist on approaching the car with all hands full and can't figure out how to unlock the thing. "What if I was carrying a child,' one asks. Then, "What if it was a child and a bag of groceries, and I have a leg cast and a pair of crutches?"

Plan ahead....

 

[Runt8]

There seems to be a lot of 'reaching' here about usability (pun intended) that discounts the problem can be solved multiple ways with the phone. The focus seems to be overwhelmingly on how to use a phone as a dumb device to replicate a keyfob, where there is a lot more you can do just within the interface of the phone to address different scenarios that a keyfob couldn't even get close to.

One just off the top of my head is I walk up to the car and unlock my phone (with an iPhone a single button press) where the app recognizes it's my car I walked up to, unlocks the driver door and pops up a prompt on screen for a second button press to unlock all doors. Hell they could even use an Apple Watch in place of a keyfob. There is probably also ways to do other things with a software based interface we haven't even thought of yet.

As to the kid problem, the above would directly address that too, just reach in your pocket and two button presses then you're putting the kid in. I think most of the griping about using a phone is missing an important bit, you can do _much_ more with a software interface to solve issues like this than you can with a static piece of hardware like a fob. It doesn't _have_ to be limited to just the phone either as a companion bit like a watch would extend what you could accomplish. The only thing you're losing is that you're used to how a keyfob works, so it's simple and familiar to you.

I think the main problem people are having are with the scenarios that traditional keyless entry systems don’t handle very well - the tug of war between convinience when needing to unlock more than just the drivers door, and security when multiple doors shouldn’t be unlocked. With a traditional key fob it’s very easy to handle. We don’t yet know if Tesla has plans to make this easy with the phone as well (for example, a popup on the lock screen) or if it will be required to open the full app.

I disagree. Your phone can always be unlocked with the pin. Adding fingerprint recognition creates one additional way the phone can be unlocked. It can still be unlocked with the pin. So there is no added security. There is, of course, added ease of use, which is why I use it.

Adding biometrics allows for a very secure method of quickly unlocking your phone the majority of the time, so that you can use a longer pin or an alphanumeric password that is much more secure than a simple 4 digit pin for the few times when the biometrics fail.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I disagree. Your phone can always be unlocked with the pin. Adding fingerprint recognition creates one additional way the phone can be unlocked. It can still be unlocked with the pin. So there is no added security. There is, of course, added ease of use, which is why I use it.

there is a 1 in 10,000 chance at guessing your PIN if it's 4 digits.

Every fingerprint is unique, therefor.......well, as a non-math major.........

 

[brkaus]

I think the main problem people are having are with the scenarios that traditional keyless entry systems don’t handle very well - the tug of war between convinience when needing to unlock more than just the drivers door, and security when multiple doors shouldn’t be unlocked. With a traditional key fob it’s very easy to handle. We don’t yet know if Tesla has plans to make this easy with the phone as well (for example, a popup on the lock screen) or if it will be required to open the full app.


Adding biometrics allows for a very secure method of quickly unlocking your phone the majority of the time, so that you can use a longer pin or an alphanumeric password that is much more secure than a simple 4 digit pin for the few times when the biometrics fail.

This. My phone “pin” is 22 character alpha numeric. I mostly rely on Touch ID.

 

[daniel]

there is a 1 in 10,000 chance at guessing your PIN if it's 4 digits.

Every fingerprint is unique, therefor.......well, as a non-math major.........

You don't need to be a math major to know that adding a second method of unlocking the phone cannot make it more secure. Just a PIN: They have to get the PIN. Pin and fingerprint: They can still open it with the PIN, but they can also open it by making you put your finger on it.

 

[N5329K]

I think the main problem people are having are with the scenarios that traditional keyless entry systems don’t handle very well - the tug of war between convinience when needing to unlock more than just the drivers door, and security when multiple doors shouldn’t be unlocked. With a traditional key fob it’s very easy to handle. We don’t yet know if Tesla has plans to make this easy with the phone as well (for example, a popup on the lock screen) or if it will be required to open the full app.


Adding biometrics allows for a very secure method of quickly unlocking your phone the majority of the time, so that you can use a longer pin or an alphanumeric password that is much more secure than a simple 4 digit pin for the few times when the biometrics fail.

And here I was thinking that opening a car door was just a simple matter of unlocking it as you approach, opening the door, getting in, closing the door. Locking it again as you walk away. The whole digital performance art potential totally escaped me.
Snark off,
Robin

 

[daniel]

This. My phone “pin” is 22 character alpha numeric. I mostly rely on Touch ID.

About once a week my phone demands I use my PIN to enable fingerprint unlocking. Do you remember this 22-character alphanumeric? Or do you have it written down somewhere? (Where someone might find it.)

 

[brkaus]

About once a week my phone demands I use my PIN to enable fingerprint unlocking. Do you remember this 22-character alphanumeric? Or do you have it written down somewhere? (Where someone might find it.)

I remember it. Combination of common (but not too common) words and numbers. Yes, those days are a drag typing it in... but not too bad.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But why a card rather than a traditional fob with a key as backup? Just because they wanted to be "futuristic."

Disagree. It's because a key card is easier to carry around than a fob. I always have my phone and wallet with me, but I don't always have my fob with me. Edit: and it's also likely necessary for car sharing (many of the car sharing systems use a key card for access too).

 

[stopcrazypp]

About once a week my phone demands I use my PIN to enable fingerprint unlocking. Do you remember this 22-character alphanumeric? Or do you have it written down somewhere? (Where someone might find it.)

This has been posted a lot of times, but it seems appropriate to post again. A long password that takes a while to enter does not necessarily mean a password that is hard to remember.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

You don't need to be a math major to know that adding a second method of unlocking the phone cannot make it more secure. Just a PIN: They have to get the PIN. Pin and fingerprint: They can still open it with the PIN, but they can also open it by making you put your finger on it.

and now add in that you might need to unlock your phone twice to get into it to unlock your car when it's -5F outside.

nah.

EDIT: The use case for opening your phone/car in the cold is way more likely than some imaginary scenario where a bad guy holds you hostage and forces you to open your car.

At least, where I live and drive it its.

Good luck to you if you have to worry about a Mad Max-esque dystopia in which your hand may get cut off to access your phone and car.....

 

[N5329K]

"It's also likely necessary for car sharing (many of the car sharing systems use a key card for access too)."
I think this is the real reason, whether sharing your Model 3 with strangers ever becomes a thing or not.,
Robin