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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
Merrill
Merrill
I enjoyed the pictures and info, hydrogen is boring.And I couldn't resist going entirely off topic.I'm like that. I ramble.
As I said, paddling is my passion. Once the virus is under control and travel is unrestricted and the paddling clubs can resume taking out visitors, I'll be happy to pass along information via PM on how to join us for outrigger canoe paddling. I fell in love with it the first time I did it, though I had previous experience kayaking.
No hydrogen involved.
brucet999
Active Member
You guys did 18 miles in 45 minute shifts. I bet you got a strong respect for the original Hawaiian immigrants who ran more then 2,200 miles on double hull canoes - albeit with sails - but no navigational instruments save bare eyes sightings of sun and stars, and no charts.
I don't use a paddle board. I tried one once, in Belize, and it was too hard on my bad back. I used to paddle kayaks but quit when I got my OC2 (two-man outrigger canoe), which I paddle with a buddy, because it's faster and more seaworthy than the kayaks we were using. The kayaks were very stable but too hard to control in rough, windy conditions. I don't have a picture of my OC2 but this is a promotional picture from the manufacturer of the same make and model as mine:
The one in the picture has a nicer paint job than mine. I got mine used so didn't get to pick the paint job.
And in six-man outrigger canoes with three different paddling clubs:
I'm in seat 3. We paddled from Canoe Beach just north of Lahaina to the harbor on Lana'i, 18 miles; and then we paddled back the next day. We had two crews and we switched about every 45 minutes:
One crew jumps off the support boat and swims to the canoe. The paddlers jump out and the fresh crew climbs in. Then the support boat picks up the swimmers. This was the 2019 Paddle for Life to raise money for the Pacific Cancer Foundation. It was a blast!
The boats are powered by our own muscles.
A nice video of a boat from the Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Voyaging Society (wearevoyagers dot org). I'm in seat two:
I recommend watching the video on Vimeo and using fullscreen.
We actually did 36 miles over the course of two days, in 45-minute shifts. Stronger paddlers than I make day-long journeys without crew changes, and in much rougher waters.
The boats used by the Polynesians for long journeys were very different than what we use. I've seen a modern reproduction. We could not even see the deck from our boat. Our outriggers are very seaworthy, but those boats were in another class altogether. The boat in Moana is small compared to that one.
But as you note, their navigational skills were nothing short of amazing. Comparing what I do to them is like comparing a stroll across an English meadow in spring to Tenzing Norgay bringing Edmund Hillary to the top of Everest.
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
Toyota’s finally throwing in the towel (to some extent), will launch two BEV models in the USA soon:
Toyota announces 2 electric cars coming to the US this year - Electrek
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Toyota announces 2 electric cars coming to the US this year - Electrek
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For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts.
Currently, hydrogen fuel is made from natural gas. But even the cleanest process produces more greenhouse pollution than simply burning the gas, a study has found.
For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts.
Industry has been promoting hydrogen as a reliable, next-generation fuel to power cars, heat homes and generate electricity. It may, in fact, be worse for the climate than previously thought.
MichaelP90DL
Active Member
I think hydrogen as a car fuel will blow up. So to speak.
Guy V
Member
Hydrogen CAN be produced in environment/climate friendly ways, eventually economically, but that's hardly going to get the support of the oil industry. It still doesn't look like there's any easy path to make it distribution-friendly like electricity. Battery technology is far from perfect though, and is going to have to up its game on useful lifetime and lifecycle management to hold onto its lead.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen has a physics problem. Batteries have a technology problem. Technology can change... physics less so.
Guy V
Member
Technology is all about managing physics. What hydrogen physics do you see as inherently insurmountable?
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
The round trip efficiency of Electricity => H2 => Electricity is limited by physics to ~50%. Thermal electric generation (All current Nuclear and Coal) is doomed for a similar reason. If you rely on a phase change to convert heat into electricity you cannot be >40% efficient because of physics. No amount of technological innovation can change this. It's like the rocket equation.
Guy V
Member
So what? We already deal with enormous amounts of efficiency loss in production, distribution and consumption of energy. The key factors are the cost of the energy production, distribution and storage for availability for use in adequate amounts for its purpose. Hydrogen doesn't have to be produced from electricity, just as it doesn't have to be undesirably produced from hydrocarbons, but even assuming that it is, if the source is clean enough, cheap enough and plentiful enough it can still be completely suitable.
As an aside, inefficiency is just waste, and if the waste can be utilized it really isn't wasted.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
So how do you produce H2 and get electricity out of it?
What source of energy is cleaner and cheaper than renewable electricity? Hydrogen from renewable electricity is limited by physics to 40%.
Physics want to know.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Sure... when we have ~2x as much renewable energy as we can possibly use and we have a sufficient supply of H2 for all the things we need H2 for it might make sense to use it as an automotive fuel. That gives batteries A long... LOOONG time to 'up their game'
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
If by 'deal with' you mean warm the planet, then sure. But I find your approach unappealing.
Your simplistic view is blind to externalities
mspohr
Well-Known Member
We're not dealing with fossil fuel waste heat, CO2, methane, etc.
Half of all fossil fuel burned is wasted and we are not dealing with it.
Yep, because incentives aren't aligned or transparent enough. It's too cheap partially because externalities aren't priced. Copious things are used wastefully by humankind. Scarcity (real or artificial) incentivizes efficiency, and the best way to create scarcity of fossil fuels is pricing. Unfortunately, it's very inequitable to just increase prices across the board, so we end up where we are with artificially cheap and abundant fossil fuels.
Remember that the only reason fossil fuel is 'so cheap' is because it was produced for eons at zero cost (in our perspective). If we had to create fossil fuel from scratch, it will be uneconomical just like hydrogen.
Think of it as the difference between picking fruits off wild trees vs farming. Big difference in effort.
Think of it as the difference between picking fruits off wild trees vs farming. Big difference in effort.
roblab
Active Member
And the power I use to run my car is so cheap because it was produced on the sun. At zero cost. So why are we even talking about hydrogen? My solar panels put power into my batteries, and I recharge my car with those electrons.
But I agree, why create fossil fuels from scratch? Let them lie, pollution free, in the bowels of the earth where they belong. And why do we need to convert sun to hydrogen? Just put the electrons in a battery until you need them. The only problem is aircraft, so maybe hydrogen has a future powering aircraft engines. Until someone comes up with something better.
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