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If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

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There is a clear distinction to be drawn here. Battery too hot = will catch fire. Battery too cold = cells physically won't accept normal charging speeds. Paired supercharger = physical limitation of the hardware. Too many DCFC events = slight increase in rate of degradation (owner completely at fault, no harm done to others, Tesla won't be forced to replace the pack under warranty).
Not exactly.
Battery too hot, probably won't catch fire, but will experience accelerated degradation and capacity loss.
Battery too cold, cells will physically accept normal charging speeds but again will experience accelerated degradation and capacity loss if allowed to do so.
Both of those conditions lead to the same issue as too many DCFC's, accelerated degradation and capacity loss. Tesla rightly tries to mitigate that.
 
Hmm. Tesla has an active heat target set at 52 C on the thermal controller. Given that Teslas have caught fire previously, and their chemistry is known to be more volatile than others, I do believe there is greater risk of thermal runaway at temperatures higher than that.

Also, it is well known that cold cells exhibit increased internal resistance and cannot accept high current while charging. Can you provide a ref. to sustain your statements?

Charging at High and Low Temperatures
 
Thermal runaway starts around 200C or so as far as I'm aware so not really relevant unless something has gone really wrong.
Yes cold increases the effective internal resistance, which causes cell voltage to rise at lower current levels. Higher cell voltage speeds the breakdown of the electrolyte which causes capacity loss, which is why current is reduced in cold packs during charging. Point being that you can charge a cell quickly while cold but it will shorten it's lifespan, so Tesla actively limits it. Basically every time you charge a cell it's a compromise and a balance to preserve capacity. This balance has to take into account a number of changing parameters, including temperature and internal resistance. If Tesla senses a pack with increased internal resistance plugged into a SC and the pack temperature is in a range which should not be creating that increased resistance they know something else is causing it and they need to lower the current. To not do so would be to further damage the cells and speed capacity loss.
 
Not exactly.
Battery too hot, probably won't catch fire, but will experience accelerated degradation and capacity loss.
Battery too cold, cells will physically accept normal charging speeds but again will experience accelerated degradation and capacity loss if allowed to do so.
Both of those conditions lead to the same issue as too many DCFC's, accelerated degradation and capacity loss. Tesla rightly tries to mitigate that.

I disagree on the DCFC events. The too hot/cold scenario is a transient condition, whereas the DCFC throttling is a permanent condition. I have the control and ability to change the temperature I'm charging in (drive somewhere else, wait for the car to cool down, etc...) ... I have no ability to mitigate the DCFC throttling. I can't wait it out, I can't slow it down, etc... I can't do anything about it, and it's arbitrarily applied retroactively without my consent. It's a very different scenario.

The fact that it only seems to affect the 90 packs is even more egregious, as I would have most definitely NOT purchased a 90 pack specifically because of this. On top of that, the fact that "slow" CHADeMo charging @ 20 - 43kW counts as Fast Charging really pisses me off.
 
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The too hot/cold scenario is a transient condition, whereas the DCFC throttling is a permanent condition. I have the control and ability to change the temperature I'm charging in (drive somewhere else, wait for the car to cool down, etc...) ... I have no ability to mitigate the DCFC throttling. I can't wait it out, I can't slow it down, etc...
Those statements don't make sense. Waiting for the car to cool down has the same effect of a longer charge time, which is what DCFC throttling does.
I think it's really simple. The car knows it's SOC, if at that SOC the voltage at a certain current is being pushed too high, regardless if it's the result of increased resistance because of cold or a permanent increase in internal resistance, the car has to dial back current. Essentially you're saying it's OK for Tesla to protect your pack if it's too hot or too cold but Tesla should allow accelerated pack degradation when the cells have suffered permanent increases in internal resistance. The only result would be your pack capacity would likely start degrading faster, cutting your usable range, which is not covered under warranty.
 
Tesla has always enforced thermal limits on the pack, while they definitely have not always enforced a limit on DCFC. However, in this case customers took delivery of a vehicle and Tesla quietly released a firmware update which permanently degraded capabilities of their vehicle. They did this with the "launch counter" and then finally backed off after threatened with lawsuits.
 
Understood, but other than the people who were specifically told that DCFC would not negatively impact the pack and who might be entitled to some compensation, I'm not sure what else Tesla should be doing. To not throttle would mean accelerated capacity loss for owners with no compensation.
 
Those statements don't make sense. Waiting for the car to cool down has the same effect of a longer charge time, which is what DCFC throttling does.
I think it's really simple. The car knows it's SOC, if at that SOC the voltage at a certain current is being pushed too high, regardless if it's the result of increased resistance because of cold or a permanent increase in internal resistance, the car has to dial back current. Essentially you're saying it's OK for Tesla to protect your pack if it's too hot or too cold but Tesla should allow accelerated pack degradation when the cells have suffered permanent increases in internal resistance. The only result would be your pack capacity would likely start degrading faster, cutting your usable range, which is not covered under warranty.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Too hot/cold is a transient condition. I will not ALWAYS be charging in a climate that is too hot or too cold. I will, at some point, be able to get my maximum charge rate. With DCFC, I will NEVER, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, be able to get my maximum charge rate.

I can choose to travel at night, instead of the heat of the day. I can choose to take a different route and not overheat the car. I can drive slower/faster to change the battery temp.

I can't do anything about DCFC throttling. Nothing I do will change the throttle.
 
I haven't had time to read all of this thread yet, but just wanted to chime in to say my experience has been identical to the OP.

I bought my Model S90D in September of 2016, was getting up to 118kW from superchargers until some time this spring or summer (might have been May like the OP). At that point my max rate dropped to the 85-95kW range (and yes I am talking about when the battery has a strength of charge in the 10-50% range which is optimal for charge rate). I sometimes top out at 85, sometimes 95, often 90 ish, but absolutely never 100 or more and this is over the course of hundreds of supercharges so this is not a small sample.

My driving habits are fairly extreme. I have put 78k miles on the car in 13 months and I have visited 431 different superchargers. I have visited some of them more than once so there are probably about 500-600 supercharging sessions. I do also use L1 charging at home and L2 at "work." I travel often, so I've only been at home about half of the time since I've owned this car.
 
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Nothing I do will change the throttle.

Right, but presumably if Tesla doesn't throttle your pack it will more quickly degrade and become unusable at some point because of reduced capacity, which is not covered under warranty. Unless you can show that is somehow the result of a manufacturing defect. If you can show wording from Tesla at the time of purchase that your car will always be capable of some minimum charge rate which it no longer achieves then maybe you'd have a case. Likewise if you can show wording from Tesla that DCFC will not negatively affect your pack. I know some people were told that verbally but that's hard to prove.

Honest question, is your position that Tesla should simply allow full power DCFC no matter what the consequences, even if it means you car ends up melting down at a supercharger, and then replace it if still under warranty?
 
Right, but presumably if Tesla doesn't throttle your pack it will more quickly degrade and become unusable at some point because of reduced capacity, which is not covered under warranty. Unless you can show that is somehow the result of a manufacturing defect. If you can show wording from Tesla at the time of purchase that your car will always be capable of some minimum charge rate which it no longer achieves then maybe you'd have a case. Likewise if you can show wording from Tesla that DCFC will not negatively affect your pack. I know some people were told that verbally but that's hard to prove.

Honest question, is your position that Tesla should simply allow full power DCFC no matter what the consequences, even if it means you car ends up melting down at a supercharger, and then replace it if still under warranty?

I'm pretty sure someone posted a link or two (at the very least) from Tesla stating that Supercharging would not harm the battery (which would also presumably mean CHADeMo would not, since it's even less rigorous on the battery during charging). Regardless, Tesla has never, prior to this discovery, told anyone that ALL DCFC would harm the battery. In fact, people have installed CHADeMos in their garages... I feel bad for them now. DCFC should not lead to battery degradation according to Tesla, therefore any battery degradation due to DCFC should be covered under warranty. How you prove battery degradation is due to DCFC and not something else, though, I don't know - but this is a hypothetical situation.

But warranty questions aside, as I believe that's another issue that probably needs discussion, but is not the issue at hand in this thread, is the fact that the car WAS most definitely advertised as being able to achieve certain charging characteristics. If the car is unable to do so, then Tesla has falsely advertised the product (see 2.8s 0-60 on a V1 and V2 P90DL pack). Tesla advertised charging times (and I believe even charging rates at one point), but come to find out the car is artificially limited and prevented from achieving those speeds and not due to transient conditions, is plainly false advertising. Of course, since this issue was discovered, they have removed virtually all references to charging times and speeds on the website, but if you look on the wayback machine, you'll see a very different story from Tesla at the time.

So to answer your question, yes I think Tesla should allow me at least the choice to charge my battery at full speeds, regardless of the deleterious nature of that charging, as long as it's within the advertised capabilities of the vehicle. They should also suffer the warranty consequences should the battery indeed fail prematurely, because THEY are the ones that made the claim that I based my decision to purchase on. I can say with 100% confidence that if I had known what I know now about the 90 Pack batteries, I would never in a million years have purchased a $150k car with these characteristics. I would rather have had an 85 pack (at the time) or a 100 Pack if I had waited a few more months (and I would have waited if I had known about the design flaws in the 90 pack).

It's my opinion that this move by Tesla is not to save users batteries so much as it is to prevent warranty liability down the road with an 8 year unlimited mile battery warranty. There is little doubt in my mind that this would not be a thing if the battery warranty was 4 years and 50k miles. The real tell here is the fact that the throttle limit is an incredibly low number when weighed against 8 years and unlimited miles. The only people who will eventually NOT hit this number are the ones who NEVER DCFC. Even if you only DCFC 10 times per year (and you can hit that number in ONE round trip), you'll still hit the cap before your battery warranty is up.

If the battery were to naturally degrade over time and lose the ability to charge at a given rate, the throttle wouldn't be needed - it would naturally throttle itself. The fact that the throttle is in place for less than 6 Mwh (or a total of about 80 charge-ups of a 90 pack) of charging indicates to me that the sudden, catastrophic failure is possible very early in the battery life cycle with high charging rates. An alternate explanation is that high charging rates might kill a significant number of cells and cause a module to fail inside the pack, which would be a warranty issue as well. Either way, this move is a move to protect Tesla from warranty liability, not to protect the user. It may have that side effect, sure, but it's not the driving reason, IMO.
 
Tesla incorperated the silicone anodes, saved a few dollars per pack due to the higher energy density, and then found that the new cells didn't like supercharging as much, so warranty would get expensive. So customers not only paid the same price for less durable cells, they get to enjoy spending more time at superchargers at Tesla saves itself more costs.
And the 100 pack you spend such an obscene premium for, comes pre-throttled. Charges at tthe same speed as original 85 pack which was MUCH smaller than 100-85 may sound. 25% bigger, yet no higher peak charge.
 
And the 100 pack you spend such an obscene premium for, comes pre-throttled. Charges at the same speed as original 85 pack which was MUCH smaller than 100-85 may sound. 25% bigger, yet no higher peak charge.

I know there is a different thread for my comment, but I feel like I should chime in here to add that the SuperCharging Taper has become much more aggressive on these 85 kW packs in recent months. Even if my battery does happily hit 115 kW or better peak charging rate, it now lasts only a few minutes -- even when starting at a low State of Charge. I can't make it to the bathroom at a rest stop with out my 115 kW dropping down to 90 kW (and often less) before I'm done using the facilities. it is disheartening to say the least.
 
I'm pretty sure someone posted a link or two (at the very least) from Tesla stating that Supercharging would not harm the battery (which would also presumably mean CHADeMo would not, since it's even less rigorous on the battery during charging). Regardless, Tesla has never, prior to this discovery, told anyone that ALL DCFC would harm the battery.

Actually, when I bought my car in 2013 Tesla had a FAQ on its site. One of the questions was (paraphrasing) "Does supercharging harm the battery?" The answer from Tesla was "Supercharging does not affect your battery warranty in any way..." Basically they deflected. They didn't say "no", which would be the correct answer if that was truly the answer. Instead, Tesla deflected to say it would not alter the stated warranty.

It was pretty obvious, even back then and from Tesla's own answer, that supercharging was not a lossless proposition.
 
I know there is a different thread for my comment, but I feel like I should chime in here to add that the SuperCharging Taper has become much more aggressive on these 85 kW packs in recent months. Even if my battery does happily hit 115 kW or better peak charging rate, it now lasts only a few minutes -- even when starting at a low State of Charge. I can't make it to the bathroom at a rest stop with out my 115 kW dropping down to 90 kW (and often less) before I'm done using the facilities. it is disheartening to say the least.

Feel free to contribute some data over here:

More aggressive (sooner) supercharge taper on latest firmware?
 
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But warranty questions aside, as I believe that's another issue that probably needs discussion, but is not the issue at hand in this thread, is the fact that the car WAS most definitely advertised as being able to achieve certain charging characteristics.

If that's true, (and there were no caveats/disclaimers), then I agree that simply throttling without compensation is not the correct solution. The reason I question it is because of the dynamic nature of charging conditions I would be surprised if Tesla worded it in a way that a vehicle would always be capable of the maximum charge rate. They would have to say something to the effect of "At X degrees and Y SOC you will achieve Z charge rate".
 
Maximum charge rate? No, but they did guarantee charging times, which are impossible with a throttled battery (also mostly impossible now with the new tapers as well). Regardless, however, with a throttle, you can't achieve the "up to 120kw," either... and that was most definitely on the website. With a 90kW throttle, you will never reach 120kw under any circumstance. They might as well have said "up to 500,000 kw charge rate*"



* car limited to 90 kw in software.