Infinite Mile Battery Warranty [Now] Being Honored By Tesla [Issue Resolved]

[HMARTINPT]

Yes, I am pretty sure that using all caps does not generate any forward momentum on the car in such situation, that is, unless the keyboard you hammer is a part of the car, and you stand on ground.

However, annoying people makes some just briefly look at the rant, then comment on the annoyance, efficiently wasting both parties time.

I WILL BE SURE TO PUT IN LOWER CASE NEXT TIME SO I DON'T ANNOY ANYBODY. OWNING 3 TESLAS, I DO HAVE OVER 300,000 REASONS TO BE UPSET AND VOICE MY OPINION. IT SEEMS LIKE MOST RATIONAL PEOPLE WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT. I AM JUST TRYING TO WARN OTHERS ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON. MAYBE YOU FEEL LUCKY AND IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN TO YOU BUT I AM SURE YOU HAVE HEARD THAT SAYING ABOUT "KARMA"

 

[mongo]

I don’t run my ICE cars down to 16 miles of range either. Not worth the risk. Nobody would demand a new gas tank from Toyota if their Camry stopped running when the trip computer said 16 miles left.

I believe in OP's case, the car started out saying 209, they traveled 139, then it stopped with the display still saying 16. They are in Houston, so snow/ cold is not a major factor.

To translate to ICE terms: Like starting with a full tank reading and the car stalls out while showing an eighth of a tank left because someone filled your tank with rocks or your fuel line leaked..

 

[HMARTINPT]

I don’t run my ICE cars down to 16 miles of range either. Not worth the risk. Nobody would demand a new gas tank from Toyota if their Camry stopped running when the trip computer said 16 miles left.

Tesla actually encourages owners to take road trips. Some times you have to do that to reach the next SC which was our case with one being only 4 miles away. I am just trying to make sure people are aware of what is going on and what Tesla has done about.

 

[David99]

There are a few facts that help determine what's going on.

When the car shuts down with 16 miles left on the display, something is wrong. Normally the car will go a little beyond 0. In 5 years I have heard only of 2 or 3 cases where the car would shut down at 2 or 4 miles left. Every time I heard of a car where it would shut down with double digits, something was wrong with the battery. Tesloop got their first battery replaced for free when that happened.

The car was advertised with 265 miles of rated range. If it now has 209 miles that's well over 20% degradation. That's almost double of the average for that mileage. At 20% degradation Tesloop got their second free battery replacement.

When Sean (Tesla YouTuber) had his Model S shut down before zero, Tesla gave him a free replacement battery and because they felt generous, they gave him an 85 battery (not software limited) even though his car was only a 60.

If the car shuts down at 16 miles we have to subtract that and the true 'degradation' would be 27%.

I highly doubt it is degradation because the BMS is perfectly capable and designed to calculate degradation properly and adjust for it. When the car shuts down prematurely, something is wrong. I believe one (or more) module(s) are defective and cause the BMS to get confused and cause the early shutdown.

Again, looking at the CAN bus would quickly show if some modules or groups are out of line. If they are all together, it's degradation. If they differ greatly, it's a defect that Tesla should admit and replace the battery.

 

[HMARTINPT]

There are a few facts that help determine what's going on.

When the car shuts down with 16 miles left on the display, something is wrong. Normally the car will go a little beyond 0. In 5 years I have heard only of 2 or 3 cases where the car would shut down at 2 or 4 miles left. Every time I heard of a car where it would shut down with double digits, something was wrong with the battery. Tesloop got their first battery replaced for free when that happened.

The car was advertised with 265 miles of rated range. If it now has 209 miles that's well over 20% degradation. That's almost double of the average for that mileage. At 20% degradation Tesloop got their second free battery replacement.

When Sean (Tesla YouTuber) had his Model S shut down before zero, Tesla gave him a free replacement battery and because they felt generous, they gave him an 85 battery (not software limited) even though his car was only a 60.

If the car shuts down at 16 miles we have to subtract that and the true 'degradation' would be 27%.

I highly doubt it is degradation because the BMS is perfectly capable and designed to calculate degradation properly and adjust for it. When the car shuts down prematurely, something is wrong. I believe one (or more) module(s) are defective and cause the BMS to get confused and cause the early shutdown.

Again, looking at the CAN bus would quickly show if some modules or groups are out of line. If they are all together, it's degradation. If they differ greatly, it's a defect that Tesla should admit and replace the battery.

I greatly appreciate your time and input. I will definitely have to take a look at the CAN bus to help prove to Tesla what is going on and keep everyone posted. I have read the same information about Tesloop and that is why I am so frustrated with Tesla. I am just trying to keep people informed about what could happen and let potential buyers beware of what is going on. Thanks again!!!

 

[shred86]

I normally get home around 5 and begin charging around 8 because I have free nights of electricity beginning at 8. I only charge to 85-90% as adviced by Tesla. This is what Tesla actually suggest you do to give the battery some recovery time. I only SC when it is necessary for me to have enough miles to get home or going on road trips. The bottom line is from my experience is that the more miles the battery has on it the less accurate the range indicator and actual battery capacity is. I use to be able to go roundtrip with the same battery and now I can't even make it to the same destination anymore without the battery failing.

What is truely frustrating is that I go to other sights such as Tesloop and they had the same problems and Tesla replaced the batteries(ie range indicator, 21% degradation). Tesloop even admitted to supercharging their vehicles to 100% all the time but they still replaced the battery. I guess it was good publicity for Tesla. They also replaced the battery for Tesloop at only 194,000. Mine has 239,000 with the same problems. I brought all of this up to the Tesla service center and got the response of each situation is different. If Tesla doesn't make this right I will continue to expose what is really going on. I understand not everyone is going to put as many miles as I have but Tesla should honor their word if they want to succeed in the future.

I have 239,000 miles on my car. I have read other posts about the range becoming out of sync but my frustration is that they stated that Tesla replaced their batteries. Tesla has always been good to us in the past. I didn't have any problems with them honoring the power train warranty besides being broke down on the side of the road and getting a tow truck driver that knows how to load a Tesla correctly. I hope you never have that problem. I just want people to know what is going on and how they have been treating us during this current situation.

Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately, you can't really compare your situation with Tesloop. For starters, there is a difference in the rate of battery degradation in charge/discharge cycles in a shorter period of time versus longer. Tesloop puts an average of 17,000 miles a month on their vehicles and go through charge/discharge cycles must more rapidly than the average user. They also had their first battery replacement on their 85D because of higher than expected battery degradation in a short period of time, and I think it was one of the first high mileage Tesla's in such a short period of time so Tesla was interested in studying it further probably to help with their R&D in future battery technology. The second battery replacement was because the vehicle experienced a rapid decline in range over a very short period of time (months), and when Tesla diagnosed it, they saw an abnormal balance in the battery pack. I'm sure the publicity helped too since Tesloop was getting a lot of attention for the mileage they were putting on the vehicles.

The threads I've seen of folks that had the vehicle power down before reaching 0 miles or 0% on their displays that ended up having a battery pack replaced was based on Tesla identifying something abnormal, which is covered under the battery warranty. There's also folks that had the same issue but simply had to "re-sync" the battery by doing a few low state of charge to 100% cycles, which has nothing to do with battery healthy but simply resyncing the BMS displayed calculation.

Based on your mileage and age of the car, the battery degradation does seem to be a bit on the high side but not completely unrealistic. The Model 3 battery warranty actually covers battery degradation, but if you look at the details it uses 70% (30% degradation) as their line to determine what's below "normal" within an 8 year period. I can only guess they choose that percentage for a reason, such as there's a very high probability the battery pack will be >70% by the 8 year point (pure speculation on my part). As a side note, most of the lithium-ion industry uses 80% as their measure of the normal life cycle of a lithium-ion battery. In my previous reply, I listed out some factors (21" wheels, 75 mph average speed) that actually get you close to the 139 miles of actual range, and it's still not taking into account any elevation or head winds, so it seems to make sense. I'm not saying that's good by any means, just trying to look at your situation objectively based on the facts we do have.

A lot of folks will argue there's little difference in charging "strategies", and they're mostly correct in the context of less than 8 years and mileage the average driver will put on their vehicles. However, as we approach 8+ years and/or higher mileages, I suspect this is where that difference becomes more pronounced and recommendations like a 70% SOC from Jeff Dahn start to show their benefits. In no way am I saying this is why your battery degradation is where it's at, but it is a factor to consider for perhaps a future EV if you plan to keep it for 8+ years and drive above the average amount of mileage.

I would be absolutely furious if my car shut down as well with the display saying there's still range left, so I can understand your frustration. I would definitely escalate the issue to, at a minimum, get that issue resolved. As for the battery degradation, I'm just not sure Tesla will provide a warranty replacement unless there's something abnormal such as cells being significantly imbalanced, a sudden/rapid decrease in capacity, etc. Definitely try to pull the BMS data if you can though as it will give you some factual data on what's going on with your batteries.

Best of luck and I hope it all works out for you in the end.

 

[Zythryn]

I started with 209 miles. I was driving the speed limit of 75 mph on the highway. No heat was on and yes it wasn't a flat service the distance of the trip. I have the 21 inch wheels/tires. So as you can see it was much more than 10% with the change and that is why I thought for sure they would be honoring the warranty. People need to be aware of what is going on. It effects all of us who own as well as new buyers. Thanks for your input.

Thanks, your communication skills are improving, which means you have a better chance at getting this resolved.
First, it looks as if you are getting expected ranges. You are driving at higher speeds, and less efficient tires than what was used by the EPA to test with.
That said, going from 16 to zero range is disturbing. Rather than accusing Tesla of dodging their responsibility, I would suggest asking them why it went from 16 miles to zero. I know the number shown is an estimate. Typically though it is very conservative, allowing people to drive further even when it reaches zero.

 

[SongjinDK]

I remember seeing somewhere that Tesla will guarantee battery capacity of 70%, is this true? If so, I guess they will replace it either something is wrong or the rated miles at 100% falls below 70% of advertised number?

 

[GreenT]

I greatly appreciate your time and input. I will definitely have to take a look at the CAN bus to help prove to Tesla what is going on and keep everyone posted. I have read the same information about Tesloop and that is why I am so frustrated with Tesla. I am just trying to keep people informed about what could happen and let potential buyers beware of what is going on. Thanks again!!!

So glad there is an IGNORE button!

 

[David99]

I remember seeing somewhere that Tesla will guarantee battery capacity of 70%, is this true? If so, I guess they will replace it either something is wrong or the rated miles at 100% falls below 70% of advertised number?

That's for the Model 3 only.

 

[MP3Mike]

I remember seeing somewhere that Tesla will guarantee battery capacity of 70%, is this true? If so, I guess they will replace it either something is wrong or the rated miles at 100% falls below 70% of advertised number?

That is only on the Model 3. S&X have no degradation warranty.

 

[mswlogo]

Hey! what's wrong with my response???
(beside the possibility that you didn't read it...


ok... they posted with more all caps, I'm out...

Yeah, I can’t even read it without blocking me ears.

 

[HMARTINPT]

Thanks for the info.

Unfortunately, you can't really compare your situation with Tesloop. For starters, there is a difference in the rate of battery degradation in charge/discharge cycles in a shorter period of time versus longer. Tesloop puts an average of 17,000 miles a month on their vehicles and go through charge/discharge cycles must more rapidly than the average user. They also had their first battery replacement on their 85D because of higher than expected battery degradation in a short period of time, and I think it was one of the first high mileage Tesla's in such a short period of time, so Tesla was interested in studying it further, probably to help with their R&D in future battery technology. The second battery replacement was because the vehicle experienced a rapid decline in range over a very short period of time (months), and when Tesla diagnosed it, they saw an abnormal balance in the battery pack. I'm sure the publicity helped too since Tesloop was getting a lot of attention for the mileage they were putting on the vehicles.

The threads I've seen of folks that had the vehicle power down before reaching 0 miles or 0% on their displays that ended up having a battery pack replaced was based on Tesla identifying something abnormal, which is covered under the battery warranty. There's also folks that had the same issue but simply had to "re-sync" the battery by doing a few low state of charge to 100% cycles, which has nothing to do with battery healthy but simply resyncing the BMS displayed calculation.

Based on your mileage and age of the car, the battery degradation does seem to be a bit on the high side but not completely unrealistic. The Model 3 battery warranty actually covers battery degradation, but if you look at the details it uses 70% (30% degradation) as their line to determine what's below "normal" within an 8 year period. I can only guess they choose that percentage for a reason. As a side note, most of the lithium-ion industry uses 80% as their measure of the normal life cycle of a lithium-ion battery. In my previous reply, I listed out some factors (21" wheels, 75 mph average speed) that actually get you close to the 139 miles of actual range, and it's still not taking into account any elevation or head winds, so it seems to make sense. I'm not saying that's good by any means, just trying to look at your situation objectively based on the facts we do have.

A lot of folks will argue there's little difference in charging "strategies", and they're mostly correct in the context of less than 8 years and mileage the average driver will put on their vehicles. However, as we approach 8+ years and/or higher mileages, I suspect this is where that difference becomes more pronounced and recommendations like a 70% SOC from Jeff Dahn start to show their benefits. In no way am I saying this is why your battery degradation is where it's at, but it is a factor to consider for perhaps a future EV if you plan to keep it for 8+ years and drive above the average amount of mileage.

I would be absolutely furious if my car shut down as well with the display saying there's still range left, so I can understand your frustration. I would definitely escalate the issue to, at a minimum, get that issue resolved. As for the battery degradation, I'm just not sure Tesla will provide a warranty replacement unless there's something abnormal such as cells being significantly imbalanced, a sudden/rapid decrease in capacity, etc. Definitely try to pull the BMS data if you can though as it will give you some factual data on what's going on with your batteries.

Best of luck and I hope it all works out for you in the end.

I appreciate your input. Tesla definitely needs to put more information out about degradation. Especially with the Model S and X, I guess that is why they didn't put a % of degradation for those vehicles but put 30% on the 3 in regards to what they would warranty. I know their sales wouldn't be as good if people knew what I have been going through and that is the reason for my post and make sure people are aware of what is going on. It is real easy for Tesla to say it is degradation or the way I am driving even though I am driving the same way I drove it back in 2013.

As these batteries get older and more miles are put on them while still being the 8 year warranty there will continue to be more customers unhappy. I bought my car in April of 2013 so I still have over two years left on the warranty. At the rate I am going now the actual driving range will be well under 100 miles in range. I actually spoke with the Tesla service representative about this and said if I wanted that type of car I would have purchased a Nissan Leaf. We actually laughed about it and he said he understood where I was coming from since the price difference of a Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model S is more than significant.

Once again I am just trying to make sure people are aware of what I am going through and Tesla's stance on it. Thanks.

 

[HMARTINPT]

That is only on the Model 3. S&X have no degradation warranty.

That is exactly correct. That allows Tesla to say it is degradation even though the vehicle could only be getting 50 miles max battery capacity. It doesn't seem right to me. How about we put a poll to that?

 

[HMARTINPT]

Thanks, your communication skills are improving, which means you have a better chance at getting this resolved.
First, it looks as if you are getting expected ranges. You are driving at higher speeds, and less efficient tires than what was used by the EPA to test with.
That said, going from 16 to zero range is disturbing. Rather than accusing Tesla of dodging their responsibility, I would suggest asking them why it went from 16 miles to zero. I know the number shown is an estimate. Typically though it is very conservative, allowing people to drive further even when it reaches zero.

I don't think I will get this resolved posting on this site especially with those that are more concerned about CAPS than what the actual problem is. I am trying to reach out and let other owners what I have been going through so hopefully they will know be more informed about the battery warranty. I have been trying to work with Tesla over the past month. My car is at the service center right now but they have already told me that they aren't applying the warranty on the battery. They still haven't given me a reason for the inaccurate range.

So glad there is an IGNORE button!

 

[SilverSp33d3r]

Please explain to everyone how the battery hasn't "failed" when you take a trip with SOC at 209 and the car stops at 139 with the range indicator stating that you have 16 miles of range left. You can also check the Tesloop site where Tesla has replaced the battery for failure for those two reasons.

Was the 139 miles in one drive? What was your WH/m indicated by the car? How many kW did it claim to consume? Your not telling the whole story with your information...

 

[HMARTINPT]

So glad there is an IGNORE button!

Ignorance is doing something the same over and over and expecting a different result. I am trying to reach out and let other owners what I have been going through so hopefully they will know be more informed about the battery warranty. Your rude responses just help make my point to rationale people what the real problem is. I guess you know about "karma" and hope you remember me when it happens!

 

[HMARTINPT]

Was the 139 miles in one drive? What was your WH/m indicated by the car? How many kW did it claim to consume? Your not telling the whole story with your information...

I will reiterate that my SOC started at 209 and the car stopped at 139 in one drive. The car actually stated that I had 16 miles left on the range. I am telling the whole story with the information that I previously stated about when we broke down. I hope the same never happens to you!!

 

[SilverSp33d3r]

I will reiterate that my SOC started at 209 and the car stopped at 139 in one drive. The car actually stated that I had 16 miles left on the range. I am telling the whole story with the information that I previously stated about when we broke down. I hope the same never happens to you!!

But you, being an owner of 3 Tesla’s should be able to identify what your WH/m was as well as how much kW the car claimed to use. I have a model s60 and when my car starts at 186 shown I can sometimes only go ~130 miles before I’m out of juice but that’s because my WH/m is higher than normal.

 

[Tam]

...16 miles left on the range...

I think Tesla is unreasonable in citing "battery degradation."

I've heard quite a few cases like yours and they all got their battery replaced under 8 year battery warranty.

The latest one is documented in:

Battery runs out with 16% indicated range remaining

If you have TM-Spy your report might show uneven voltages and not nicely even as below:

Each bar represents a brick. There are 96 bricks and each brick has 74 cells for a total of 7,104 cells. These bricks are in parallel so there's no sweat if one single cell fails.

However, If there are enough cells fail, it can create unbalanced charging and eventually would pull the whole pack down.

That is a pack failure and not degradation.

Failure to hold a charge is not the same as degradation.