Infinite Mile Battery Warranty [Now] Being Honored By Tesla [Issue Resolved]

[HMARTINPT]

@HMARTINPT, you could try talking to a different service center and see if they are more helpful. I recommend describing the issue in a simpler way. You have 209 miles rated range at 100% instead of 267 miles when new. That means you have 209/267= 78% capacity left. Your mileage is 239,000. The average S/X battery capacity at this mileage is 90%. Your degradation is more than twice the average.

The number of charge cycles causes a certain amount of degradation that can't be avoided. The more cycles the more degradation. That's normal. However, some batteries degrade more on top of that. The most important factor that would cause additional degradation is the amount of time the battery spends close to 0% and 100%. Let's say overnight you have set it to 100% because you have a trip tomorrow. The battery reached 100% at 3 am and you drove off at 9 am. That means the battery was subject to parasitic chemical reactions for 6 hours. Doing this regularly is a guaranteed way to ruin the battery. In comparison, Supercharging to 100% regularly is not an issue because you drive off after Supercharging.

Similarly, arriving at your destination with close to 0% and plugging-in to a 110V outlet would be bad because the battery would spend more time close to 0%. If you do this regularly, those hours would add up over time and it would ruin the battery. However, if you arrive with 0% and you plug-in to a NEMA 14-50 outlet, that's not an issue. The total number of hours the battery spends close to 100% or 0% in its lifetime is what determines the additional degradation.

If Tesla replaces this battery, you might want to consider selling this car and switching to another Tesla with more range so you can avoid getting close to 100% and 0% regularly if that's an issue. Check out the range table here.

Not to be rude but this smells a bit to me. The only posts this user has ever made are in this thread. I realize it's early but where are the technical details? (Like CAN bus.) Where are some pictures? Why the pretty family picture? (Okay, maybe you are just proud.) Could we still have shorts trying to manipulate the stock? Guess the number of manipulative posts in this anonymous setting leaves one a bit jaded.

OP, will you please clarify something for me. You indicated that the car charged to 309 miles. You also indicated that you charge to 85% to 90%. Was the 309 mile range shown on the car at an 85-90% charge, or did you charge to 100% to get a 209 mile range indication on the car.

I ask because I charge to 89% on my 2013 P85, which gives me a range of 227-229 miles indication on my car.

Also, the range indication is based upon an assumed speed of 55mph on 2012 and 2013 model S cars. The faster you drive the more energy you use and hence the shorter your range. Headwinds, rain, snow, cold temperatures also reduce the range of the battery. Your energy usage of 360 Wh/mi is very high.

Not to be rude but this smells a bit to me. The only posts this user has ever made are in this thread. I realize it's early but where are the technical details? (Like CAN bus.) Where are some pictures? Why the pretty family picture? (Okay, maybe you are just proud.) Could we still have shorts trying to manipulate the stock? Guess the number of manipulative posts in this anonymous setting leaves one a bit jaded.

I changed my profile picture to the screen shot of my Tesla when we broke down just to verify we only had 139 miles when the battery failed. I put my family picture up because I am not a shamed to put a face to the legitimate complaint I have against Tesla. My wife's biggest fear with Tesla is breaking down on the side of the road like we did. I am sure the majority of people would understand why you wouldn't want that to happen to your family. I did use to have stock in the company until I had 3 different occasions when my power train failed and Elon's picture of "bankrupt" didn't help his cause there. Once again I am just trying to let others know what we are dealing with and how Tesla is handling it.

 

[HMARTINPT]

For someone who has driven over 250k miles, I thought they would know by this time the effect of speeding on the efficiency and hence the range, and also how to drive when you just have a few miles left.

I have 239,000 miles on the car to be exact. I am very aware about the effect to speeding has on the efficiency and hence the range. By the way we were going the speed limit of 75mph on the highway. Even Tesla admits the range indicator should not be that inaccurate. Why can't you?

 

[David99]

When you get below 10%, it is not uncommon for the car to shutdown if you continue to drive aggressively. The car in fact warns you to drive slow.

Not true. It is very very uncommon for a Tesla to shut down before it shows 0 miles. Almost all the time I hear a story about this happening, it ended up being a failing battery. I have driven 2000k miles in my Model S and on road trips have driven my car down to single digits countless times. Sometimes still going fast. It has never shut down on me. It is not a common thing for the car to shut down once below 10%.

 

[HMARTINPT]

There are a few puzzling issues with this story so far. First, there's the shut down at 16 miles indicated range. There are a bunch of reasons why that is possible, even if that is rare. Mainly, some sort of voltage sag (high current draw) right at the bottom of the pack's state of charge can make the car shut down to protect the battery pack. That surge of power usage can be the heater combined with some acceleration can cause the car to shut down. It is rare at 16 miles of rated range, but possible. It is more possible if the car's BMS is out of calibration or the pack is very much out of balance.

Talking about replacing the drive units doesn't affect or help the situation with the battery pack. The OP keeps talking about the power train, which I assume means the drive units. There's guidance for when to replace those. There's also guidance on replacing the battery pack. And there is no cell degradation warranty on the S/X, but that doesn't mean Tesla shouldn't cover this case if the issue is actual cell problems. But it also doesn't mean that Tesla should cover the issue if it is just cell degradation.

If the reduction in pack capacity is because some cells have a defect and are no longer part of the pack, then replacement is part of the warranty. It is also possible if a group of cells is in particular in bad shape. But if all the cells come back as having the same capacity, then it isn't a warranty issue. It's overall cell degradation given the OP's driving habits. Using an app that pulls the cell voltages can also help determine if there is a problem. Note, Tesla doesn't usually replace a pack with a new pack... it should be a pack with roughly the same degradation level with all the cell groups intact. So if the cells are all reading the same, then Tesla's replacement would be a pack with the same range.

Usually, if Tesla doesn't believe this is a problematic pack, they usually do recommend some balancing. The car only top balances, when the state of charge is over 93%. So the question is, has the OP done any balancing? Did Tesla indicate how the cells were doing as as balance? Usually, they recommend charging to 100%, waiting, then driving down to < 20 miles, and repeat twice on these older packs.

If it turns out that there is a particular cell module at fault, at this point, I thought it was possible for Tesla to replace individual modules. Is this a Rev A pack?

I am not aware if it is Rev A pack. When I was talking to the Tesla service member in the beginning he did say that he didn't know how they would replace an 85 because they don't make them anymore.
I live in Texas and it was in the 70's when we broke down so no use for a heater. People keep referring to ICE vehicles but that definitely doesn't apply here.
I understand that the drive unit doesn't affect the battery but I included it previous posts to show how Tesla has done the right thing in the past. The first time I got guidance when the drive unit crashed was a loud bang in the back of the car when I was going down a major highway. Of course they replaced with a brand new drive unit. I found it interesting that you have found that they will only replace the battery to its current battery capacity. The Tesla service member said he didn't even know how they would replace an 85.

 

[thefortunes]

Not true. It is very very uncommon for a Tesla to shut down before it shows 0 miles. Almost all the time I hear a story about this happening, it ended up being a failing battery. I have driven 2000k miles in my Model S and on road trips have driven my car down to single digits countless times. Sometimes still going fast. It has never shut down on me. It is not a common thing for the car to shut down once below 10%.

Agreed, with 375k between my brother's and my cars. (Although your UM are off by a factor of 10)

 

[Electroman]

The Tesla service member said he didn't even know how they would replace an 85.

I believe they replace an 85 with a 90

 

[swegman]

OP, please tell us whether the 209 mile indicated range in the car when you charged was when the car was charged to 100% or to the 85-90% you previously talked about. You quoted my posting to you a few posts back but did not answer that question.

 

[HMARTINPT]

OP, will you please clarify something for me. You indicated that the car charged to 309 miles. You also indicated that you charge to 85% to 90%. Was the 309 mile range shown on the car at an 85-90% charge, or did you charge to 100% to get a 209 mile range indication on the car.

I ask because I charge to 89% on my 2013 P85, which gives me a range of 227-229 miles indication on my car.

Also, the range indication is based upon an assumed speed of 55mph on 2012 and 2013 model S cars. The faster you drive the more energy you use and hence the shorter your range. Headwinds, rain, snow, cold temperatures also reduce the range of the battery. Your energy usage of 360 Wh/mi is very high.

We did a trip charge and started with 209, not 309. I understand the energy usage was high but we were driving the speed limit down the highway and that still doesn't justify why the range indicator at 16 when battery failure occurred.

 

[HMARTINPT]

OP, please tell us whether the 209 mile indicated range in the car when you charged was when the car was charged to 100% or to the 85-90% you previously talked about. You quoted my posting to you a few posts back but did not answer that question.

I did a 100% trip charge to 209.

 

[MP3Mike]

I found it interesting that you have found that they will only replace the battery to its current battery capacity. The Tesla service member said he didn't even know how they would replace an 85.

Even if they replace an 85 pack with a remanufactured 90 pack, the 90 pack will have degradation as well. The warranty only states that it will be the same, or more, capacity as your pack had before it failed.

I believe they replace an 85 with a 90

Depends on if a remanufactured 85 pack is available at the time. I saw recently where someone with a P85DL got an 85 pack as a replacement but it wasn't Ludicrous capable so they had to replace the pack again and he ended up with a 90 pack. (So that 85 pack is now available to go to someone else.)

 

[David99]

For someone who has driven over 250k miles, I thought they would know by this time the effect of speeding on the efficiency and hence the range, and also how to drive when you just have a few miles left.

He had 209 miles of range when he left.

He drove at 360 Wh/mile. That number includes all conditions, heater/AC, driving style, weather, wind, terrain, ...

295 Wh/mile is the rated range energy consumption established by the EPA test and confirmed by Jason Hughes reading it from the car's firmware. Here is the math:

209 * 295 / 360 = 171 miles.
He should have gotten 171 miles of range driving the way he did.

He only drove 139 miles. The car showed him 16 miles left. So the car 'swallowed' another 16 miles somewhere which seems fishy as well.

I really don't understand how you can 'blame' the owner here saying he should have known. Based on every number and experience and what the car told him, he stayed within the limits and did nothing wrong. If what he says is correct, it looks like those other cases where the battery needs to be replaced.

 

[SilverSp33d3r]

I changed my profile picture to the screen shot of my Tesla when we broke down just to verify we only had 139 miles when the battery failed. I put my family picture up because I am not a shamed to put a face to the legitimate complaint I have against Tesla. My wife's biggest fear with Tesla is breaking down on the side of the road like we did. I am sure the majority of people would understand why you wouldn't want that to happen to your family. I did use to have stock in the company until I had 3 different occasions when my power train failed and Elon's picture of "bankrupt" didn't help his cause there. Once again I am just trying to let others know what we are dealing with and how Tesla is handling it.

Can you post it as an attachment so we can actually see it?

 

[MP3Mike]

This is my theory: When you get below 10%, it is not uncommon for the car to shutdown if you continue to drive aggressively. The car in fact warns you to drive slow.

By the way we were going the speed limit of 75mph on the highway.

I understand the energy usage was high but we were driving the speed limit down the highway and that still doesn't justify why the range indicator at 16 when battery failure occurred.

Is this your way of saying "Yes, we continued to drive at 75 MPH even though the car was warning us to slow down in order to be able to make it to the next Supercharger."?

 

[StealthP3D]

I believe in OP's case, the car started out saying 209, they traveled 139, then it stopped with the display still saying 16. They are in Houston, so snow/ cold is not a major factor.

Houston has been getting some wintery weather recently with snow flurries and wind. What I've noticed is people who are accustomed to warm weather often crank the heat up pretty high at the slightest chill.

 

[mongo]

Houston has been getting some wintery weather recently with snow flurries and wind. What I've noticed is people who are accustomed to warm weather often crank the heat up pretty high at the slightest chill.

Could be, it was 60 when I posted, but I didn't do a long term check.

 

[Uncle Paul]

OP has not given us enough information to make a guess at his issue.

Tesla will warranty batteries if they are defective, but some degradation over time and multiple charges is expected. Not sure if Tesla has published what degree of degradation makes it eligible for warranty replacement.

Rated range is always an estimate. Weather conditions of cold, wet roads, driving technique, snow or elevation can cause variations from range predicted. Cranking the heat up also will reduce range. Driving the speed limit is not an excuse, if the speed limit is 75 or 80 mph

Only Tesla can pull the logs and determine if the battery pack is not performing properly.

If the OP has a habit of running his battery very low, or charging very high, that will also be a self inflicted cause of battery degradation.

Of course the OP will want a new battery, but it is up to Tesla to make the call and explain why they will not replace the battery for free.

They have replaced many many batteries for free, for lots of customers, but in this case they have demurred.

 

[HMARTINPT]

Is this your way of saying "Yes, we continued to drive at 75 MPH even though the car was warning us to slow down in order to be able to make it to the next Supercharger."?

The car said we had 16 miles left and we weren't driving 75mph for the previous 15 miles before the battery failed. I hope the same never happens to you and someone keeps trying to blame it on you.

Is this your way of saying that it is alright for the car to indicate that you have 16 miles left and then the battery fails. Tesla doesn't even agree with your suggestion there.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Tesla should be able to pull up your logs and determine why that 16 miles of range was inaccurate.

 

[HMARTINPT]

Houston has been getting some wintery weather recently with snow flurries and wind. What I've noticed is people who are accustomed to warm weather often crank the heat up pretty high at the slightest chill.

I will reiterate that we didn't have the heat on.

 

[HMARTINPT]

OP has not given us enough information to make a guess at his issue.

Tesla will warranty batteries if they are defective, but some degradation over time and multiple charges is expected. Not sure if Tesla has published what degree of degradation makes it eligible for warranty replacement.

Rated range is always an estimate. Weather conditions of cold, wet roads, driving technique, snow or elevation can cause variations from range predicted. Cranking the heat up also will reduce range. Driving the speed limit is not an excuse, if the speed limit is 75 or 80 mph

Only Tesla can pull the logs and determine if the battery pack is not performing properly.

If the OP has a habit of running his battery very low, or charging very high, that will also be a self inflicted cause of battery degradation.

Of course the OP will want a new battery, but it is up to Tesla to make the call and explain why they will not replace the battery for free.

They have replaced many many batteries for free, for lots of customers, but in this case they have demurred.

I liked your comment about "it is up to Tesla to make the call and explain why they will not replace the battery" There in reveals the problem that Tesla is very vague in the Warranty in regards to degradation for the Model S and Model X unlike what they have written for the model 3. They can basically say it is degradation and the way you drive it as long as they want. This allows them to not honor the warranty. I hope you never experience the problems I am having.

Just so you know I almost never charge to 100% and never go down to 0%. I still didn't go down to 0% when the car shut down according to the vehicle. Once again I am just trying to make sure other owners are knowing what is going on with my vehicle and how Tesla is handling it.