An ill-advised thread for that perhaps, as it is not on-topic for the 1000+ days club?
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It’s been 1051 days since I paid in full for FSD
- Thread starter Edgewood Dome
- Start date
An ill-advised thread for that perhaps, as it is not on-topic for the 1000+ days club?
It's funny, the EAP folks sued for a (in retrospect) much shorter delay and did get a settlement out of Tesla (albeit stupidly small to most owners) I am actually surprised there isn't a suit yet on FSD. But I may have just missed it.
And I think you're also a member of a group which never existed in the history of cars, because for no other car then, and now, was there ever any possibility that the features of the car could be upgraded OTA after purchase.
So, Tesla is obviously issuing OTA's on a regular basis, and the FSD division, or whatever you would call it, is probably working very hard to get FSD features done. I would bet it may have occurred to them that Elon was out there (or the marketing department was out there) being overly optimistic as to when features would roll out, but I am sure the software people don't get much of a vote or input on pricing.
Hopefully it will occur to them soon, and then they can calculate it.
And I didn't even get into the problem which you highlighted. Since FSD goes with the car one way for an owner to get a refund is to sell the car with FSD, which ought to be priced more than a car without FSD. But that makes it even more complicated and the damage is simple.
Its almost like a straightforward warranty claim. If a feature on a car does not work, you can usually take it in and get the car fixed.
It is very subjective what feels right. For example for me a lawsuit would be completely counter-productive and any remedy like that just an insult.
I’m far better off with just being honest about the situation. Yep, I was fooled by Tesla and now I happily have my eyes open about what kind of company they are. It is refreshing, really.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
A non-refundable, non-transferable software preorder that runs on a product with an ever increasing probability of becoming a total loss as it ages? I'm sure it happens all the time!
Some combination of:
1. Assume that the feature would have worked on the car for 10 years (you need some sort of assumption). Since its $3K, it would be a refund of $300 per year or half year or whatever. I would end the refund when the nav on city streets is released. If someone wants to argue that ten years is too long or it ought to be a total refund if a driver is required (because until there is no driver its not FSD) then see below:
2. Offer a full refund now to people who purchased before 2019. This would be instead of option 1. Question would be whether you would offer the same people the chance to purchase later at the price they paid in the first place. Depends on how much good will you want. Option 1 works for all the early FSD buyers because, as someone pointed out, until the nav on city streets comes out they have gotten no features.
The people who feel it was the timing that was unfair would take Option 1. The people who feel like the entire concept was oversold would take Option 2.
If the nav on city street roll out is really only a month or two away, I think these offers should not be made until then. Can you imagine someone who takes Option 2 only to find out a couple of months later that FSD works and now would cost $8k when they had it?
Another wild card is the fact that while the buyer can't transfer FSD it can be transferred via the car. Since the trade in value of any car, would include FSD, there should be a difference between two comparable Teslas, one with FSD and one without, and the one with FSD ought to be priced at least as much higher as the FSD, since, unlike the rest of the car, the FSD does not decline in value.
Leases are conceptually interesting becuase the FSD ought to be considered as part of the residual value. You can make a case that it ought to be almost "free" -- remember the lease payments are based on time and residual value. Leasing a hypothetical car which did not decline in value ought to be the finance charge of the car. Becuase the FSD feature did not decline in value you really should not have been paying much for it other than the finance charge of it. So on a three year lease it would be three years of the cost of the $3k.
1. Assume that the feature would have worked on the car for 10 years (you need some sort of assumption). Since its $3K, it would be a refund of $300 per year or half year or whatever. I would end the refund when the nav on city streets is released. If someone wants to argue that ten years is too long or it ought to be a total refund if a driver is required (because until there is no driver its not FSD) then see below:
2. Offer a full refund now to people who purchased before 2019. This would be instead of option 1. Question would be whether you would offer the same people the chance to purchase later at the price they paid in the first place. Depends on how much good will you want. Option 1 works for all the early FSD buyers because, as someone pointed out, until the nav on city streets comes out they have gotten no features.
The people who feel it was the timing that was unfair would take Option 1. The people who feel like the entire concept was oversold would take Option 2.
If the nav on city street roll out is really only a month or two away, I think these offers should not be made until then. Can you imagine someone who takes Option 2 only to find out a couple of months later that FSD works and now would cost $8k when they had it?
Another wild card is the fact that while the buyer can't transfer FSD it can be transferred via the car. Since the trade in value of any car, would include FSD, there should be a difference between two comparable Teslas, one with FSD and one without, and the one with FSD ought to be priced at least as much higher as the FSD, since, unlike the rest of the car, the FSD does not decline in value.
Leases are conceptually interesting becuase the FSD ought to be considered as part of the residual value. You can make a case that it ought to be almost "free" -- remember the lease payments are based on time and residual value. Leasing a hypothetical car which did not decline in value ought to be the finance charge of the car. Becuase the FSD feature did not decline in value you really should not have been paying much for it other than the finance charge of it. So on a three year lease it would be three years of the cost of the $3k.
It definitely should be transferable and I feel even worse for people who got FSD on a lease... / :
The name is Richard Fellows, I live in a Geodesic Dome in the City of Edgewood, see the picture. We were early in the Tesla Model S purchasing our 1st S85 in Nov 2012, taking delivery in March 2013. Loved the car but it had the early car problems, battery repaired, power train replaced twice, sunroof leaks and squeeks (of course all Sunroofs do that) but it was still a wonderful car. Then AP1 came out and the thought and possible future promise of FSD, however it was obvious the AP1 system could not deliver on FSD. Then I heard a rumor that the next gen of Autopilot, AP2 was coming out. I waited, reading all of the posts here and other places, then Elon announced it AP2.0 would deliver full FSD. He personally said in an interview that the cars now had all of the Hardware necessary and they were working on the software which would be out no later than Dec 2016. I took that interview as a personal promise from Elon, Not just the car company. We traded our 2013 S85 (full boat car, all options except performance) in and took a $40k depreciation hit, but I had to have the FSD. Finally the car was ready and we picked it up on Dec 31st, 2016, about the time the FSD software was supposed to be pushed out. The car didn't have even cruse control initially, the software was so bad, but I waited patiently because Elon Promised. When we finally had initial AP, it was terrible, ping-ponging all over the road, but I waited patiently because Elon Promised. Over the next couple of years the AP continued to get better, it still could not read the speed limit signs that AP1 could do, but overall it had more features like NoA, but still no FSD, but I waited patiently because Elon Promised
I don't want a refund, I don't want to have to take another $40k depreciation hit and buy another Model S, because Elon Promised it was in mine. I want what was promised by Tesla and Elon, or they can do a trade in, like for like at no additional cost to me, for a new S with the FSD computer and FSD features. But right now I want Elon to state clearly and unequivocally when they will upgrade my car to the FSD computer. And it better be soon.
I just Tweeted to Elon again today, only it was 1052 days, tomorrow 1053 and until I hear from Elon I will continue to Tweet it, hopefully someone will pick it up and amplify it. I'd like to see all of the 1000+ FSD folks do the same.
I don't want a refund, I don't want to have to take another $40k depreciation hit and buy another Model S, because Elon Promised it was in mine. I want what was promised by Tesla and Elon, or they can do a trade in, like for like at no additional cost to me, for a new S with the FSD computer and FSD features. But right now I want Elon to state clearly and unequivocally when they will upgrade my car to the FSD computer. And it better be soon.
I just Tweeted to Elon again today, only it was 1052 days, tomorrow 1053 and until I hear from Elon I will continue to Tweet it, hopefully someone will pick it up and amplify it. I'd like to see all of the 1000+ FSD folks do the same.
Kant.Ing
Member
DanCar
Active Member
There are no regulations prohibiting this in Arizona and perhaps Florida and other jurisdictions.
DanCar
Active Member
On the plus side, you got a deal on what now costs $7K.
Not quite. It was $5000 for EAP and $3000 for FSD. Now AP is free and FSD is $7000, so it's now $1000 cheaper than what some EAP/FSD buyers had to pay. If purchased after delivery, some had to pay $6000 for EAP and $4000 for FSD, $3000 more than what it would cost now.
If you want to look at Autopilot as being free you can but when they started including it they increased the base price $2,000.
From the Press Release: "All Tesla vehicles now come with Autopilot bundled as a standard feature for less than the prior cost of the option. For example, Model 3 Standard Plus used to cost $37,500, plus $3,000 for the Autopilot option. It now costs $39,500, with Autopilot included."
The historic pricing is no easy slog to figure out, but I would say it is:
1. Basic AP $2,000. That was either $2,000 or $3,000 of the optional "EAP" (see Trips post).
2. EAP $2k or $3k, that means EAP was either the "rest" of the $5K paid by Dome, or, for those of us who bought in the current pricing structure, some chunk of the $6K which bundled the old EAP features into the new FSD suite of features.
3. FSD: For those like Dome, it was the easiest = $3K. That's the group, due to length of time and no delivery of features who is owed. Newer purchasers like me paid $6k for some features delievered, some not.
And I'm not even getting into the various discounted prices here and there.
These discussions always swirl around due to the following points, all of which are IMO, accurate: (1) the pricing of basic AP is fine considering what other car companies charge for similar features, (2) what we tend to call EAP features, most notably Navigate on Autopilot, would easily be another couple of grand-ish from any other car company, (3) the rest of FSD has not been delivered, (4) when navigate on city streets is delivered it will be worth, assuming it functions at all, another couple of grand, (5) its unclear when the features will coalesce into true FSD, and (6) although everyone agrees that FSD would be worth far more than a couple of grand, since no one knows when that will be its speculation at this point.
But as I have said, the best customer relations move is to offer something to Dome and others who were in the group who paid $3k for features that were not delivered for at least a year and up to three years.
1. Basic AP $2,000. That was either $2,000 or $3,000 of the optional "EAP" (see Trips post).
2. EAP $2k or $3k, that means EAP was either the "rest" of the $5K paid by Dome, or, for those of us who bought in the current pricing structure, some chunk of the $6K which bundled the old EAP features into the new FSD suite of features.
3. FSD: For those like Dome, it was the easiest = $3K. That's the group, due to length of time and no delivery of features who is owed. Newer purchasers like me paid $6k for some features delievered, some not.
And I'm not even getting into the various discounted prices here and there.
These discussions always swirl around due to the following points, all of which are IMO, accurate: (1) the pricing of basic AP is fine considering what other car companies charge for similar features, (2) what we tend to call EAP features, most notably Navigate on Autopilot, would easily be another couple of grand-ish from any other car company, (3) the rest of FSD has not been delivered, (4) when navigate on city streets is delivered it will be worth, assuming it functions at all, another couple of grand, (5) its unclear when the features will coalesce into true FSD, and (6) although everyone agrees that FSD would be worth far more than a couple of grand, since no one knows when that will be its speculation at this point.
But as I have said, the best customer relations move is to offer something to Dome and others who were in the group who paid $3k for features that were not delivered for at least a year and up to three years.
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