What are people that bought Full FSD doing?

[ddeflyer]

I didn’t say Elon was immune from legal action, but it’s still not breach of contract, legally speaking.

Elon's statements don't make for a contract, but statements by company officers can be argued to describe the feature set which is part of the motor purchase agreement, especially when the order page doesn't really have concrete definition on it.

Without secondary and tertiary sources you could claim that a brick duct taped to the steering wheel is self driving, it turns all on its own! Obviously everyone knows that isn't what FSD is so these sources matter!

 

[TresLA]

Elon's statements don't make for a contract, but statements by company officers can be argued to describe the feature set which is part of the motor purchase agreement, especially when the order page doesn't really have concrete definition on it.

Without secondary and tertiary sources you could claim that a brick duct taped to the steering wheel is self driving, it turns all on its own! Obviously everyone knows that isn't what FSD is so these sources matter!

The motor vehicle order/purchase agreement and configuration page lists it by name, but that’s the same as any other vaguely named option like “Long Range Battery” (i.e. - how many kWh? How is “Long” defined? Etc.) The order page does have concrete definitions of what “Full Self-Driving Capability package” includes, on multiple pop up’s and feature lists. The source is there. It’s always been clear. The reporting on it and hearsay is what’s not been clear.

 

[ddeflyer]

Long range for example is quite well defined as and EPA estimated range of ~330 miles (varies a little by configuration which they are up front about). If they were to sell you a car with a different configuration which is not capable of hitting that range on the same test then they should be liable (and that liability would vary by the amount short it is, 1 mile would produce pretty much no impact, 60 miles would be a big deal) for recourse.

Specifically, there is no actual description box on what "Autosteer on city streets" is. If you click feature details, there isn't anything there. I think it can be surmised that this is "Full self driving" on city streets from that, especially when you consider past statements about the FSD feature from Tesla and its officers.

 

[dbldwn02]

Long range for example is quite well defined as and EPA estimated range of ~330 miles (varies a little by configuration which they are up front about). If they were to sell you a car with a different configuration which is not capable of hitting that range on the same test then they should be liable (and that liability would vary by the amount short it is, 1 mile would produce pretty much no impact, 60 miles would be a big deal) for recourse.

Specifically, there is no actual description box on what "Autosteer on city streets" is. If you click feature details, there isn't anything there. I think it can be surmised that this is "Full self driving" on city streets from that, especially when you consider past statements about the FSD feature from Tesla and its officers.

My car was also advertised with radar, but it no longer has that...soooo....

 

[NYMY]

Not me...I like my car the way it is...6 years later. FSD ($3k) is still useless to me but the rest of the car is still great.

Plus, Tesla is on the hook to provide me hardware/software upgrades until it checks all the boxes of the 2016 Full Self Driving description, not the 2018+ watered down "FSD" description. I know they'll give up on delivering one day, but it'll be interesting to see how they toe this line, in the meantime.

For reference this is what was promised for 2016-2018 FSD.

Tesla announces all production cars now have fully self-driving hardware

Once again our readers guessed it right (well 40% of you). You said that today’s announcement would be about Autopilot...

electrek.co

In stark contrast here is what is being promised for 2023 FSD...
_______________________________________________________________

Full Self-Driving Capability​

$15,000

1. All functionality of Basic Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot
2. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Coming Soon​

1. Autosteer on city streets

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
______________________________________________________________________

So...stop light and city street auto steer for $15k or $200/month? Hahaha...no.

I mean, they even specifically call out the fact that the car is not autonomous and has no promise that it ever will be. How it can still be called FSD, is beyond me.

Just curious where you got the old text? Is there somewhere that shows how the FSD sales text evolving over time?

 

[TresLA]

Long range for example is quite well defined as and EPA estimated range of ~330 miles (varies a little by configuration which they are up front about). If they were to sell you a car with a different configuration which is not capable of hitting that range on the same test then they should be liable (and that liability would vary by the amount short it is, 1 mile would produce pretty much no impact, 60 miles would be a big deal) for recourse.

Specifically, there is no actual description box on what "Autosteer on city streets" is. If you click feature details, there isn't anything there. I think it can be surmised that this is "Full self driving" on city streets from that, especially when you consider past statements about the FSD feature from Tesla and its officers.

This sounds too nit picky to hold water in any court case. For example, Long Range can be argued by that logic as not being clear. It has changed so many times and so often that I have to always look it up just to see what Tesla says it is now. But no one seems to think that’s a big enough deal. As for FSD Capability package feature lists, you’re only talking about future features that don’t yet exist in production. All the other features are listed clearly (as clearly as “Long Range”), have detailed popups and support pages, and so the onus is on the consumer to learn from what’s available. The more root of the issue isn’t a Tesla thing, but a societal one. We don’t have language and agreed upon definitions of what exists between LKA (lane keep assist) and “sleep-in-the-backseat autonomous vehicles”. Attempts have been made like the SAE levels (which most seem to think are already lacking), but the general public isn’t yet familiar with those even. We might as well be discussing “living on Mars”, which some could consider a success if you can keep conscious each day, while others wouldn’t consider it accomplished until playgrounds for raising children, wine bars are open, and accessible flights back to earth are available.

 

[TresLA]

Just curious where you got the old text? Is there somewhere that shows how the FSD sales text evolving over time?

Archive.org has a bunch of it, but it hasn’t really changed much over the years. Slight word changes yes, but the general idea has stayed the same.

 

[dbldwn02]

This sounds too nit picky to hold water in any court case. For example, Long Range can be argued by that logic as not being clear. It has changed so many times and so often that I have to always look it up just to see what Tesla says it is now. But no one seems to think that’s a big enough deal. As for FSD Capability package feature lists, you’re only talking about future features that don’t yet exist in production. All the other features are listed clearly (as clearly as “Long Range”), have detailed popups and support pages, and so the onus is on the consumer to learn from what’s available. The more root of the issue isn’t a Tesla thing, but a societal one. We don’t have language and agreed upon definitions of what exists between LKA (lane keep assist) and “sleep-in-the-backseat autonomous vehicles”. Attempts have been made like the SAE levels (which most seem to think are already lacking), but the general public isn’t yet familiar with those even. We might as well be discussing “living on Mars”, which some could consider a success if you can keep conscious each day, while others wouldn’t consider it accomplished until playgrounds for raising children, wine bars are open, and accessible flights back to earth are available.

Yup. I think once you can safely take your eyes off the road, the company can call it "Self-Driving." Until then, I'm driving because I'm responsible. The car is just assisting me.

 

[dbldwn02]

Here's the latest description of FSD from Tesla (as of 2/27)...From the recall webpage. Update Vehicle Firmware to Improve Certain FSD Beta Driving Operations | Tesla Support

They basically listed all the things people complain about...Left turns, stop signs, speed changes, and turn-only lane issues. The funny thing is, they say these issues are rare...I don't think they know the meaning of the word, "Rare"

FSD Beta is an SAE Level 2 driver support feature that can provide steering and braking/acceleration support to the driver under certain operating limitations. With FSD Beta, as with all SAE Level 2 driver support features, the driver is responsible for operation of the vehicle whenever the feature is engaged and must constantly supervise the feature and intervene (e.g., steer, brake or accelerate) as needed to maintain safe operation of the vehicle.

In certain rare circumstances and within the FSD Beta operating limitations, when the feature is engaged, it could potentially infringe upon local traffic laws or customs while executing these driving maneuvers in specific conditions before the driver may intervene:

1. Traveling or turning through certain intersections during a stale yellow traffic light
2. The perceived duration of the vehicle’s static position at certain intersections with a stop sign, particularly when the intersection is clear of any other road users
3. Adjusting vehicle speed while traveling through certain variable speed zones, based on detected speed limit signage and/or the vehicle’s speed offset setting that is adjusted by the driver
4. Negotiating a lane change out of certain turn-only lanes to continue traveling straight

 

[qdeathstar]

Im quickly approaching the boat where I'll want to upgrade this year/next but have full FSD on the car. When I bought in 2020 I didn't have any doubt that Elons promises would manifest by now, but I was clearly duped into dumping thousands for FSD for features that have still not manifested in the lifetime of the car.

Tesla continues to throw its early adopters in the trash, and wont recognize the full 15k FSD value they advertise in trade in, and refuse to transfer FSD to a new car so we at least have the chance to use what we paid for in our next car.

Are people that have bought FSD 4-5 years ago just eating that cost and moving on? I feel trapped since a significant value of my car is in FSD, and that value is not being recognized by Tesla, I can't transfer it to a new car if I want to upgrade, and want FSD but dont want to pay 15k for it again to be screwed over or give up that up for a 200 a month fee.

Really sucks and dont understand why the small % of full FSD owners can't take their license with them until all features are working as advertised. Really disingenuous of Tesla to all of us that paid for it...

The fsd computer in your car is obsolete. That’s why Tesla doesn’t give any value to it. I’d wait to see what happens once they officially release hw4. I want my free upgrade, OR ELSE.

 

[qdeathstar]

My car was also advertised with radar, but it no longer has that...soooo....

It still has a radar…

 

[ddeflyer]

This sounds too nit picky to hold water in any court case. For example, Long Range can be argued by that logic as not being clear. It has changed so many times and so often that I have to always look it up just to see what Tesla says it is now. But no one seems to think that’s a big enough deal. As for FSD Capability package feature lists, you’re only talking about future features that don’t yet exist in production. All the other features are listed clearly (as clearly as “Long Range”), have detailed popups and support pages, and so the onus is on the consumer to learn from what’s available. The more root of the issue isn’t a Tesla thing, but a societal one. We don’t have language and agreed upon definitions of what exists between LKA (lane keep assist) and “sleep-in-the-backseat autonomous vehicles”. Attempts have been made like the SAE levels (which most seem to think are already lacking), but the general public isn’t yet familiar with those even. We might as well be discussing “living on Mars”, which some could consider a success if you can keep conscious each day, while others wouldn’t consider it accomplished until playgrounds for raising children, wine bars are open, and accessible flights back to earth are available.

The crux of what I suspect everyone is angry about (myself included) is in the undefined city streets portion. Who in their right mind would pay $9K for automatic traffic light controls (which are incredibly poorly done to the point of being terrifying)? I bought FSD for eyes off drive me where ever, preferably with a helping of "come get me at the airport" mixed in.

I'd also point out that the disclaimer, in full, currently says:

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

Out of this, the implication of the currently enabled features not making the vehicle autonomous implies that autonomous vehicles are part of the discussion (just not with the limited features so far). Also, these future features require regulatory approval which, in the US, is only needed for L3+. Add onto that the simple english/common meaning of "full self driving" with previous statements from Musk and even the previous order page description (arguable, but I think it still bears some weight) leads to a pretty strong argument that Tesla must deliver some degree of truly autonomous vehicle to HW3.

 

[dcesq06]

Some people may want to check their state's statute of limitations for breach of contract lawsuits. My state has a four-year time limit from the point of contract breach to bring action. For those who claim that they were promised robotaxis or L4/5 capability by the end of 2019 might want to start shopping around for a lawyer soon. Four years will be up at the end of 2023.

The operative words being "from the point of contract breach," which isn't necessarily the date the contract is signed.

 

[BobDolesGhost]

I bought my '18 M3P from Tesla used in Feb'21 with FSD on it. Comparing my used FSD M3P to similar used non-FSD M3P, it looked like Tesla charged me about $4k for it used at the time.

The $4k I spent I feel is worth it simply for the auto-lane change. I was ultra hyped to get FSDb in Oct'21, but it quickly wore off. It was very bad initially and tried to kill me 3 times. It got much safer in 2022, but it still made many dumb mistakes. Too many to tolerate really that my FSDb use now is just on 2 lane highways. I can't even use it on 4 lane highways because it will make the most dumb lane choices like - it insist in getting in the left hand lane when a right hand turn is less than 100yds off

I very much want a new plaid S for my seat-butt-o-meter to enjoy those joyful Gs. If I can swing it and pull the trigger on the buy, I'd get EAP for the $6k they want for it and feel pretty ok on that. If FSD ever becomes a reality, I'll do the subscription. $15k is obnoxiously overpriced for what it is now and you can't trust that Elon/Tesla will make it real before the plaid S gets replaced in 4-8'ish years I usually keep cars

A second aspect - I'm buying the plaid to drive it. Having AP / EAP on the freeway will handle the long drives and off-freeway I want to floor it every chance I get ahaha FSD's slow poke meandering just wouldn't do

 

[ewoodrick]

My car was also advertised with radar, but it no longer has that...soooo....

Did someone remove it?

 

[EVRider-FL]

I can't even use it on 4 lane highways because it will make the most dumb lane choices like - it insist in getting in the left hand lane when a right hand turn is less than 100yds off

There's no FSD Beta for the highway yet. That's just regular Navigate on Autopilot, which does not take turns off the highway (other than exit ramps). That will change in FSD Beta V11.

But regular Navigate on Autopilot does make questionable (and sometimes dangerous) lane changes on the highway which is why I never disabled lane change confirmations.

 

[BigTree]

Tesla FSD - make it TRANSFERABLE so we can buy new Teslas!​

I started a petition to get this changed!!

SIGN HERE: Sign the Petition

We paid thousands for Full Self-Driving that has yet to become reality. Having to pay for it a 2nd time at a much higher amount stops me and so many others from upgrading their Tesla.

Us Tesla owners love to have the new versions and are willing to pay for regular upgrades, but with a $15,000 penalty, it doesn't make sense.

Elon Musk can easily make it transferable to a new vehicle which I am sure would significantly DRIVE SALES.

I and a large number of my friends would buy a new one tomorrow if FSD was transferable!

Win-Win!

 

[ewoodrick]

That's just regular Navigate on Autopilot, which does not take turns off the highway (other than exit ramps). That will change in FSD Beta V11.

That's a little confusing.
I believe that it only functions on limited access highways. Which by definition only has exit ramps.

 

[EVRider-FL]

That's a little confusing.
I believe that it only functions on limited access highways. Which by definition only has exit ramps.

You can sometimes use Navigate on Autopilot on non-interstate highways with traffic lights and turns, but I don’t think that’s what the poster I responded to was talking about. My point was that FSD Beta doesn’t work on interstates currently, it switches to regular NoA.

 

[BobDolesGhost]

You can sometimes use Navigate on Autopilot on non-interstate highways with traffic lights and turns, but I don’t think that’s what the poster I responded to was talking about. My point was that FSD Beta doesn’t work on interstates currently, it switches to regular NoA.

No, I mean a non-interstate 4 lane hiway, FSDb is active on those. While on the interstate in my case, I don't use NoAP either and prefer to use the auto lane change on my say so.