Jaguar I-Pace

[buttershrimp]

It hasn't been delivered yet, though. At the moment Roadster in 2020 is the promise. Not the delivery.

Tesla used to have a reputation of underpromise and overdeliver sometime back in 2014 when it came e.g. to performance. Unforunately P85D, AP1, P90DL, AP2 have switched over to overpromise and underdeliver since then. Not to mention Elon's timelines in general.

Even if you have a positive outlook on Elon, you can't really say he underpromises and overdelivers. He may deliver great things with these companies, sure, but usually that has been preceded by great hype and possible overpromises at the very least on schedule - not preceded by underpromise.

I think that logic is flawed, as though the standard measure of Elon is whether he underpromises or overdelivers, but he's not interested in any of that.... He's too busy doing things. I'm sure he has his fair share of issues, but I make no mistake, the guy is force of nature in terms of actual real world impact he is going to have. He may end up being the most important visionary we've seen since Einstein. Time will tell, but I have to say, thus far, I don't see anyone like him. Whether we feel entitled to judge his statements through the lens of a automobile customer is the argument your having. Which is a fine argument, but not a particularly interesting one. Not as long as he's staying leagues ahead of other automakers who have straight up inferior products.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think that logic is flawed, as though the standard measure of Elon is whether he underpromises or overdelivers

Be that as it may, that was the logic offered by Lokolo and I simply disagreed with that - IMO Elon has not been underpromising and overdelivering at Tesla in recent years, quite the contrary. There is no need to read anything more into my message.

 

[Carl]

I think that logic is flawed, as though the standard measure of Elon is whether he underpromises or overdelivers, but he's not interested in any of that.... He's too busy doing things. I'm sure he has his fair share of issues, but I make no mistake, the guy is force of nature in terms of actual real world impact he is going to have. He may end up being the most important visionary we've seen since Einstein. Time will tell, but I have to say, thus far, I don't see anyone like him. Whether we feel entitled to judge his statements through the lens of a automobile customer is the argument your having. Which is a fine argument, but not a particularly interesting one. Not as long as he's staying leagues ahead of other automakers who have straight up inferior products.

Not only do I agree with that, but I also somewhat believe calisnow's "Necessary Lie" idea: a "temporary" big and flat lie, in October 2016, about AP2 capabilities (even against the will of his engineers working on AP2, who wouldn't understand where Elon is coming from), to ensure continued sales of AP2 cars, avoid a dip in sales, but ensure that the cars on the road will eventually get Tesla to FSD, ahead of competition.

I'm certainly not saying that's OK, in terms of commercial ethics, but at least it would be a sort of "white lie", to get AP where he wants it to be - I can't think the same of the VW Group (and even today, of all other makes selling diesel motors) - their lies were/are quite "black" just to ensure they can keep on selling their filthy diesel things, and not take us any step further. IIRC Audi even said they would not abruptly discontinue development/production of diesel motors, as that would affect the Audi s/h diesel resale value too much, and hence the trust in the Audi brand...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Carl What is similar about the VW diesel lie and the speculated/alleged Tesla AP2 "Necessary Lie", is that both seem to have been done to maintain a certain status quo, though.

While one can argue the AP2 scenario aims at a next step, at the core of the "Necessary" word, though, would be the same need to maintain a status quo for Tesla cars as was at the root of the diesel scandal.

As you know, I would prefer no lies and do believe some moderate transparency instead would have won Tesla more in the longer-run, nor would it IMO have endangered the company in the short-term. I argued the same with Tesla's P85D, P90DL performance fiddling that ended up in courts...

Let's just hope that class-action doesn't put a dent in the Necessary scenario theory.

 

[buttershrimp]

@Carl What is similar about the VW diesel lie and the speculated/alleged Tesla AP2 "Necessary Lie", is that both seem to have been done to maintain a certain status quo, though.

While one can argue the AP2 scenario aims at a next step, at the core of the "Necessary" word, though, would be the same need to maintain a status quo for Tesla cars as was at the root of the diesel scandal.

As you know, I would prefer no lies and do believe some moderate transparency instead would have won Tesla more in the longer-run, nor would it IMO have endangered the company in the short-term. I argued the same with Tesla's P85D, P90DL performance fiddling that ended up in courts...

Let's just hope that class-action doesn't put a dent in the Necessary scenario theory.

I think this sums up my experience of AP2, what say you AR?

 

[smac]

More news cropping up:

• Jaguar to look at a cheaper base model with less performance and smaller pack once the launch cars are sold.
• 150kW CCS Charging for the car, and plans in place to upgrade the UK CCS charging network.
• The car weighs 400kg less than a Model X!!
• You can make the car growl to warn pedestrians (Good to see a dash of humor )

Jaguar likely to offer cheaper fleet version of I-Pace electric car

I can see this being a serious problem here in the UK for Tesla in the period between IPace launch and the RHD Model 3 becoming available. I wonder what they can do to the S/X line-up in the intervening period?

 

[Mitrovic]

More news cropping up:

• Jaguar to look at a cheaper base model with less performance and smaller pack once the launch cars are sold.
• 150kW CCS Charging for the car, and plans in place to upgrade the UK CCS charging network.
• The car weighs 400kg less than a Model X!!
• You can make the car growl to warn pedestrians (Good to see a dash of humor )

Jaguar likely to offer cheaper fleet version of I-Pace electric car

I can see this being a serious problem here in the UK for Tesla in the period between IPace launch and the RHD Model 3 becoming available. I wonder what they can do to the S/X line-up in the intervening period?

Thanks smac for the news and for talking about the I-Pace in this thread!
150 kW charging is extremely important for the acceptance on the market for the I-Pace as is the Supercharger Network for Tesla, is my opinion! Of course there are not many 150kW CCS chargers around yet, but that can change fast!
I think now, there is no excuse for me not to buy one!

 

[WarpedOne]

Any word on pricing?
30,60,90,120?

 

[buttershrimp]

Well I guess @AnxietyRanger just doesn't like Funky Town... tough crowd

 

[Lokolo]

Thats great news, and confirmation again about their deal with Chargemaster for a charging network. Will be interesting to see how this rollout is supported.

Not really up for the iPACE cost, as nice as it is. Hopefully with the electrification of the rest of the Jaguar fleet by 2020 means I can go and get myself a nice Jaguar XE BEV. I guess the electrifying of the rest of the fleet will depend on how successful the iPACE is.

edit -
I wouldn't be surprised if the joint venture between Jaguar and Chargemaster is a success that Jaguar would buy them.

 

[Carl]

Well I guess @AnxietyRanger just doesn't like Funky Town... tough crowd

Shrimpin’ ain’t easy, or so they say. Your AP2 videos are just great but they obviously won’t please those who wake up every morning angry about the lack of a rain sensor in their car. Different perspective.
Anyway, back on topic: that 150kW news is simply great! I cannot understand lukewarm reactions to it. Even if it couldn’t be applicable to me (and it isn’t as I’m not trading my Tesla in any time soon) it still makes me happy for the EV revolution as a whole. Again, some only think of their own case. Different perspective, and to each his own.

 

[buttershrimp]

Shrimpin’ ain’t easy, or so they say. Your AP2 videos are just great but they obviously won’t please those who wake up every morning angry about the lack of a rain sensor in their car. Different perspective.
Anyway, back on topic: that 150kW news is simply great! I cannot understand lukewarm reactions to it. Even if it couldn’t be applicable to me (and it isn’t as I’m not trading my Tesla in any time soon) it still makes me happy for the EV revolution as a whole. Again, some only think of their own case. Different perspective, and to each his own.

Nothing wrong with a 150kW battery, maybe 200 without supercharger network.

 

[Carl]

The idea is 150 kW car with 150 kW superchargers. Of course it wouldn’t make much sense otherwise Buttershrimp!

 

[techmaven]

The idea is 150 kW car with 150 kW superchargers. Of course it wouldn’t make much sense otherwise Buttershrimp!

Not sure what you are saying here. Vehicles often charge at a much lower rate than the EVSE is capable of providing.

 

[Carl]

Jaguar was announcing (perhaps) that the I-Pace would accept 150kW charging, just as 400V Teslas accept a max of 120kW.

 

[techmaven]

More news cropping up:

• Jaguar to look at a cheaper base model with less performance and smaller pack once the launch cars are sold.
• 150kW CCS Charging for the car, and plans in place to upgrade the UK CCS charging network.
• The car weighs 400kg less than a Model X!!
• You can make the car growl to warn pedestrians (Good to see a dash of humor )

Jaguar likely to offer cheaper fleet version of I-Pace electric car

Very interesting... 84.7 kWh usable.

Of course, 400 kg less than a Model X for a Model 3 sized vehicle isn't that big of a deal. Model X is about 2,500 kg with a 100 kWh pack, which is actually 102.4 kWh with 98.4 kWh usable. That puts the I-Pace at 2,100 kg, or 330 kg more than the Model 3 LR which has a 80.5 kWh pack, 75 kWh usable. Given that the i-Pace has almost the exact same exterior dimensions as the Model 3, that means the I-Pace is pretty heavy... and with a bigger frontal area (taller roof) and a much higher drag coefficient of 0.29 (claimed by Jaguar), the efficiency will be

Given that, with LG NMC 111 cells, GM has restricted charging c-rates to less than 1C, what will Jaguar do with their LG cells? Did they engineer sufficient battery cooling to charge higher than 1C? Hopefully, as GM's charge rate is really low.

Still, with first year's production slated at 13,000 units, not really seeing much of a global impact from the i-Pace overall. But it will be big for Jaguar and Tata. This puts Tata in a very good position to scale up.

 

[techmaven]

Jaguar was announcing (perhaps) that the I-Pace would accept 150kW charging, just as 400V Teslas accept a max of 120kW.

Still not sure what you are saying. The limiting factor for Tesla vehicles isn't the EVSE... it's the charging c-rate of the cells given a desired cycle life. Nothing to do with voltage. Tesla Superchargers are capable of 370 amps and if the charging c-rate could handle it, existing models could take 125-135 kW for extended periods of time.

The new generation of CCS is built around a 350 amp plug. At 360 volts, that's 125 kW.

 

[sammyfan711]

Jaguar was announcing (perhaps) that the I-Pace would accept 150kW charging, just as 400V Teslas accept a max of 120kW.

S and X have a max 120kw, Model 3 is 220kw

 

[Carl]

Still not sure what you are saying. The limiting factor for Tesla vehicles isn't the EVSE... it's the charging c-rate of the cells given a desired cycle life. Nothing to do with voltage. Tesla Superchargers are capable of 370 amps and if the charging c-rate could handle it, existing models could take 125-135 kW for extended periods of time.

The new generation of CCS is built around a 350 amp plug. At 360 volts, that's 125 kW.

No idea about the technicalities. What I know is that my 85 (400V) charges at max 120 kW (well I think the max I've ever seen on my car is 119 kW), and that 350V 75's charge at 100kW or so max. Glad to know the Superchargers could give even more kW, but currently the Tesla cars won't accept it. So I'm just assuming that if Jaguar says their cars will accept 150 kW and CCS charging stations will indeed deliver 150kW, that would be good news.

S and X have a max 120kw, Model 3 is 220kw

Really? Wow, I never saw that elsewhere. Please explain as that would really be great info.

 

[buttershrimp]

More news cropping up:

• Jaguar to look at a cheaper base model with less performance and smaller pack once the launch cars are sold.
• 150kW CCS Charging for the car, and plans in place to upgrade the UK CCS charging network.
• The car weighs 400kg less than a Model X!!
• You can make the car growl to warn pedestrians (Good to see a dash of humor )

Jaguar likely to offer cheaper fleet version of I-Pace electric car

I can see this being a serious problem here in the UK for Tesla in the period between IPace launch and the RHD Model 3 becoming available. I wonder what they can do to the S/X line-up in the intervening period?

I have to hand it to jaguar, they are making me rethink my stance of skepticism against them. If they can get an autopilot equivalent it would be huge.