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Likelihood of a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S

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#181
Lloyd said:
The problem with Chademo from what I remember reading is that Chademo protocol controlls the charging cycle rather than the car. Tesla does not want to allow someone elses protocol to charge their batteries. An intermediary would have to be constructed to simulate a charging battery allowing the car to continued to dictate the charge, and tell Chademo when to ramp down and finish charging.

Anyone correct me if this is incorrect.
Click to expand...

I take it you are referring to this post?
widodh said:
But he also says that he doesn't like CHAdeMO since it goes into the internals of the car (CAN bus). He expects that quick chargers will be retrofitted to the new SAE standard. (Did I get that part right?)
Click to expand...

In general though, your interpretation is incorrect. The car does have to send battery parameters to the CHAdeMO station and the station does send data signals to the car, but it is the car that controls the charging cycle (by sending signals with the charging current specified, it also sends the 0 current signal to signify to stop charging).
http://www.chademo.com/05_protocol.html

I think the engineer was more concerned about security (you can do a lot more with a CAN bus than just charging) and that you have to send detailed battery information to the charger (which you presumably don't have to with the J1772-DC). Plus, like TEG says, it's a lot more complicated than J1772 since you need full bi-directional support (whereas J1772 is quite "dumb"/simple and just uses a pilot signal, J1772-DC will add PLC).
 
#182
stopcrazypp said:
I think the engineer was more concerned about security (you can do a lot more with a CAN bus than just charging) and that you have to send detailed battery information to the charger (which you presumably don't have to with the J1772-DC).
Click to expand...
The LEAF uses a separate CAN bus for quick charging. Presumably all other cars are similar. Not sure what "detailed" battery information you are referring to. All that seems to be required is voltage, current, and SOC. Voltage and current must be monitored regardless of the protocol. The LEAF doesn't even send an accurate SOC to the QC station.
 
#183
The car can stop charging at any moment. If sending a "stop" message to the CHAdeMO charger does not work, it can just open the battery contactors and thus isolating the charger from the battery.

And Tesla wouldn't necessarily need the CHAdeMO specs, they could farm out the production of an adapter to a company that's already a CHAdeMO member. They'd have to supply their own charging specs of course.
 
#184
jkirkebo said:
...And Tesla wouldn't necessarily need the CHAdeMO specs, they could farm out the production of an adapter to a company that's already a CHAdeMO member. They'd have to supply their own charging specs of course.
Click to expand...

Which brings up a point - perhaps CHAdeMO is more of a standard than Tesla Supercharging.
Maybe Tesla doesn't want to share details of how SuperCharging works, at a technical level?


Reminder - this can work both ways... What about a LEAF that wants to charge at a Tesla Supercharging station?
 
#185
drees said:
The LEAF uses a separate CAN bus for quick charging. Presumably all other cars are similar.
Click to expand...
That would be the necessary implementation to address security concerns. But I think it is most likely that concern that the engineer was referring to.

drees said:
Not sure what "detailed" battery information you are referring to. All that seems to be required is voltage, current, and SOC. Voltage and current must be monitored regardless of the protocol. The LEAF doesn't even send an accurate SOC to the QC station.
Click to expand...
I'm just referring to the second compatibility check step of the CHAdeMO protocol (which seems to involve more than just simply transmitting the target voltage and current required for charging; it seems like the stations needs a pretty good view of the specs of the battery pack before it even allows charging to start):
Transmit battery parameters: Max. voltage to stop charging, Target voltage, Total battery capacity, etc.
Click to expand...
http://www.chademo.com/05_protocol.html
 
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#186
TEG said:
What about a LEAF that wants to charge at a Tesla Supercharging station?
Click to expand...

Good one!

Ain't gonna happen unless you find:
1) A source for a Model S connector inlet (what's on the car).
2) Someone who's knowledgable and willing to spend the time to reverse engineer whatever protocols Model S is using (probably the easiest part of this). And then build a Chademo emulator (patents?).
3) Someone with a Model S who's willing to let his car be analyzed to enable the above reverse engineering.

I think #1 kills the possibility, at least until someone wrecks their Model S so badly that after they cart the bodies away, you "pick a part" off of the car before the tow truck arrives. Kind of like a James Dean Porsche thing:

What-was-left-of-the-Little-Bastard.jpg



Sorry for the morbid visual.
 
#187
stopcrazypp said:
I'm just referring to the second compatibility check step of the CHAdeMO protocol (which seems to involve more than just simply transmitting the target voltage and current required for charging; it seems like the stations needs a pretty good view of the specs of the battery pack before it even allows charging to start):

http://www.chademo.com/05_protocol.html
Click to expand...
Yes, but IMO - to QC safely, you'd want to know all those parameters before you start delivering any power.
 
#188
If I recall correctly, CHAdeMO expects to talk to the car's CAN bus (through an interface of course). But there's no reason you have to exposure the real CAN bus. Just provide an interface that simulates the bus and handles only the messages needed by the charge station.
 
#190
ggr said:
I had the impression that the Tesla Supercharger network is going to be private, for Teslas only, as a benefit to buying them. With bi-directional signalling it would be easy enough to authenticate the vehicle, so even an adapter wouldn't help.
Click to expand...

So, does that mean that the CHAdeMO network is private for LEAF/iMiEV only and Teslas shouldn't try to charge there?

(Contemplating concepts of reciprocal sharing...)
 
#193
Larry Chanin said:
Can you please elaborate? Were you merely reacting to the speculation that characterizes this forum, or do you have an authoritative source?

Thanks.

Larry
Click to expand...

Before going through with making our reservation and in part as a condition of it, I was referred to two Tesla product specialist managers in WA that were at a CA Tesla training the week before. Both of them assured me with certainty that a CHAdeMO adapter had been engineered and was now in the refinement stage, with efforts to make it more "ergonomic".


evmile said:
Here is a list of 14 DC fast chargers (ChaDeMo) located in Washington and Oregon.

West Coast Green Highway - Electric Highways


There are two DC fast Chargers in the San Francisco Bay area. One is in Belmont the other in San Ramon.
Click to expand...

Yes, anyone saying CHAdeMO isn't happening, has their head in the sand. the rate of CHAdeMO installation is really picking up out west, despite the pathetic heel dragging going on in CA. There are many more than 14 already, with more being unveiled on a regular basis.Yet another QC opened up in Castle Rock WA, completing that stretch of the WCGH. Oregon in particular has really been on the ball, so much so that they are on their second major grant extension. There is a stretch of I-5 in Oregon with CHAdeMO stations every 25 miles. The second wave of expansion in Oregon has begun, with something like 35 more actively being installed. Oregon has decided to become an EV vacation destination, committing to offer charging out along the coast from I-5 to major vacation favorites. QC's are being placed close enough together to offer redundancy, to prevent the overnight strandings we've seen in WA when QC's malfunction. Portland has many QC's, even an "electric avenue" with 2 QC's and several L2's. Tesla has, IMHO, missed a crucial opportunity by going exclusive with their network. Tesla's exclusivity is a double whammy to the fledgling EV charging infrastructure. Tesla cars will have to use adapters to use the public chargers, defeating the purpose of having a sleek plug and the infrastructure they are adding will do nothing to help spread accessibility for EV's in general, since no one else will be able to use them. CHAdeMO is the closest thing we have to a standard, it's what is being proliferated... at the very least, Tesla needs to follow through with a CHAdeMO adapter so at least the S can access the CHAdeMO network and be fully unleashed. Ideally, Tesla stations would also offer some level of reverse compatibility to other EV's, they could simply give Tesla owners priority, maybe even charge non-Tesla owners a premium as well.
 
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#194
100thMonkey, Can you recheck your sources on the CHAdeMO adapter for the S? Your post seems to be the only positive info on this topic.

Anyone else have positive info? (as in Tesla IS going to release an adapter)

I just checked on plugshare.com and there are 144 CHAdeMO stations listed with 39 in my home state of Texas.

I really don't want to wait years for a Tesla SC. And even if they build all they promise, I don't want to miss out on all the CHAdeMO chargers available.
 
#195
I hope a CHAdeMO adapter comes out for the people that want it. If I understand this correctly, most or all of the CHAdeMO installations were built with some DOE funding directly. Other than the DOE loan funding Tesla and therefore indirectly funding the Supercharger network, I don't think Tesla is getting additional funding for their Supercharger network so they are not obligated to charge other cars. Unless other cars can charge in the same 30 min, they would be tying up the spot for longer than a Tesla would. If Tesla did directly receive DOE funding for the network then they should look to supporting other cars at some point but still give priority to their own customers.
 
#196
FWIW, I was just at the Tesla store opening in Natick, MA and one of the sales people there stated that Elon recently said Tesla was working on a CHAdeMO adapter.
I believe that the public charging stations will start using the SAE connector in addition to CHAdeMO, hopefully with higher power capacity. In one of the discussions, a Tesla engineer said the SAE to Tesla adapter would be mechanical, like the J1772 adapter. The CHAdeMO adapter would have to have some intelligence to translate between the CHAdeMO and Tesla control signalling protocols.
 
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