LR AWD getting a new battery chemistry for 2023?

[Gauss Guzzler]

Tesla just slipped the LR AWD Model 3 back into the US market with a reduced range battery which does not qualify for the full tax credit. And curiously, it's *exactly* the same price as the Model Y AWD, which does qualify.

This might hint at the reason the 3LR has been off the US market for 260 days. Perhaps they don't have enough Nevada 2170's to go around so they prioritized the high profit 3P and Y while shopping for a foreign alternative? Any guesses as to what this new mystery battery might be? It's too good for LFP and too expensive for 4680, so what does that leave?

 

[E90alex]

I’m guessing China made LG Chem NCM 2170 cells already in use by the MIC cars sold outside of US.

 

[Tam]

Tesla just slipped the LR AWD Model 3 back into the US market with a reduced range battery which does not qualify for the full tax credit. And curiously, it's *exactly* the same price as the Model Y AWD, which does qualify.

This might hint at the reason the 3LR has been off the US market for 260 days. Perhaps they don't have enough Nevada 2170's to go around so they prioritized the high profit 3P and Y while shopping for a foreign alternative? Any guesses as to what this new mystery battery might be? It's too good for LFP and too expensive for 4680, so what does that leave?

Another hint is the range is now reduced from 358 to 325 miles. That's a loss of 33 miles or 9.2%.

It points to Made-in-China LFP with a 1/2 tax credit.

 

[DrChaos]

Another hint is the range is now reduced from 358 to 325 miles. That's a loss of 33 miles or 9.2%.

It points to Made-in-China LFP with a 1/2 tax credit.

I think made-in-China LG NMC, which previously were used only in China sales.

The LG batteries are 75 kWh vs 82 with Panasonic. 75.82 = 0.915, right inline with the range loss estimate.

Panasonics are better, more energy and Pansonic's cells don't blow up.

 

[positiv]

I think made-in-China LG NMC, which previously were used only in China sales.

The LG batteries are 75 kWh vs 82 with Panasonic. 75.82 = 0.915, right inline with the range loss estimate.

Agree. I think these are made in China LG NMC/NCM cells, not LFP. The LG cells have been widely used both inside and outside of China.

 

[DownshiftDre]

The LFP battery warranty on RWD is 8 years/100k miles. The Model 3 Long Range battery warranty is still 8 years/120k which means it is the similar chemistry to M3P and Model Ys.

 

[GtiMart]

I don't know... whereas the other models write (EPA est.) besides the range figure, this one just writes (est) as if it was not based on proper EPA testing, and there's a "+" sign that no other model has,... I'm not sure we can infer that much yet.

 

[E90alex]

Another hint is the range is now reduced from 358 to 325 miles. That's a loss of 33 miles or 9.2%.

It points to Made-in-China LFP with a 1/2 tax credit.

That doesn’t point to LFP. It just means it has a new battery pack that’s not the US made Panasonic pack. China makes all types of batteries, not just LFP.

In order to be LFP, energy density needs to have improved by like 25% compared to the RWD LFP pack. Which seems unlikely in just 1-2 years.

 

[yesimon]

That doesn’t point to LFP. It just means it has a new battery pack that’s not the US made Panasonic pack. China makes all types of batteries, not just LFP.

In order to be LFP, energy density needs to have improved by like 25% compared to the RWD LFP pack. Which seems unlikely in just 1-2 years.

It's probably CATL's "M3P" LMFP batteries. It's made in China, energy density/range slots in right between the RWD LFP and previous LR, timeline matches up, and the "325+ range" figure hints that final performance testing has yet to finished. If Tesla is using cells already being used in China it would not need to guess the range.

 

[DrChaos]

It's probably CATL's "M3P" LMFP batteries. It's made in China, energy density/range slots in right between the RWD LFP and previous LR, timeline matches up, and the "325+ range" figure hints that final performance testing has yet to finished. If Tesla is using cells already being used in China it would not need to guess the range.

I'm not sure about that last idea. EPA test cycles aren't the same as WLTP or whatever China uses. They could guess using those data, but still not be certain for USA until they really do it.

I still think the most likely case is the boring one, using the LG NMC cells they've always used in China. The ratio of battery energy exactly matches the reported range difference. I think CATL would want to make a big press announcement too for M3P cells going into commercial application, and for that application to be in China first.

M3P's would be cool in some ways, probably allowing more charge to 100% and less degradation. The LG NMC's are just plain worse than the Panasonic NCA's, less energy and way more degradation at 100% SOC.

 

[E90alex]

It's probably CATL's "M3P" LMFP batteries. It's made in China, energy density/range slots in right between the RWD LFP and previous LR, timeline matches up, and the "325+ range" figure hints that final performance testing has yet to finished. If Tesla is using cells already being used in China it would not need to guess the range.

Previous report put the M3P batteries at 15% energy density improvement over LFP. Not enough for this LR pack.

The range is because it’s not EPA certified with the new battery yet. Even if the battery is in use in other countries, it wouldn’t have been EPA certified if it was never intended for US sales previously.

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

Tesla just slipped the LR AWD Model 3 back into the US market with a reduced range battery which does not qualify for the full tax credit. And curiously, it's *exactly* the same price as the Model Y AWD, which does qualify.

This might hint at the reason the 3LR has been off the US market for 260 days. Perhaps they don't have enough Nevada 2170's to go around so they prioritized the high profit 3P and Y while shopping for a foreign alternative? Any guesses as to what this new mystery battery might be? It's too good for LFP and too expensive for 4680, so what does that leave?

View attachment 934064

I don't get it. Our UK brethren pointed out you can get a 400 miles M3 but ONLY as a business lease. I think I'd rather wait and see if the redesigned M3 comes w HW4, 8 cameras, etc.

 

[E90alex]

I don't get it. Our UK brethren pointed out you can get a 400 miles M3 but ONLY as a business lease. I think I'd rather wait and see if the redesigned M3 comes w HW4, 8 cameras, etc.

Where? I haven’t seen any 400 mile Model 3 anywhere before.

Also keep in mind WLTP ratings are much more optimistic than EPA. Currently the Tesla UK site lists 374 mi WLTP for the Model 3 Long Range AWD.

 

[MP3Mike]

Where? I haven’t seen any 400 mile Model 3 anywhere before.

They are offering a Model 3 Long Range RWD variant there, but I think only for fleets. You can't order it on the site.

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

Where? I haven’t seen any 400 mile Model 3 anywhere before.

Also keep in mind WLTP ratings are much more optimistic than EPA. Currently the Tesla UK site lists 374 mi WLTP for the Model 3 Long Range AWD.

new Tesla Model-3 400 mile range, only for businesses in the UK

Electrek article "Tesla announced that it is making a new version of the Model 3 with the Long Range battery pack and a single RWD motor, but it’s only available to businesses in the UK. Model 3 with a Long Range battery pack, but it only has a single rear-wheel-drive motor ... 394 miles...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[E90alex]

new Tesla Model-3 400 mile range, only for businesses in the UK

Electrek article "Tesla announced that it is making a new version of the Model 3 with the Long Range battery pack and a single RWD motor, but it’s only available to businesses in the UK. Model 3 with a Long Range battery pack, but it only has a single rear-wheel-drive motor ... 394 miles...

teslamotorsclub.com

I see that now.

394 mi WLTP on a smaller 79kWh battery vs 82kWh we get in the US for the previous LR and current P. And just going by the % difference of Model 3 P EPA vs WLTP and doing some calculations you get approximately 345mi EPA for that model in the US.

 

[ucmndd]

The LFP battery warranty on RWD is 8 years/100k miles. The Model 3 Long Range battery warranty is still 8 years/120k which means it is the similar chemistry to M3P and Model Ys.

Warranty duration has nothing to do with cell type or chemistry. Historically Tesla has used this as a cost containment and/or upsell measure on their cheaper cars - the original Model S 60 used identical cells to the larger 85 pack but had an 8 year 120k mile warranty instead of 8 years unlimited miles.

I believe there were warranty duration differences with early Model 3 cars as well (SR+ vs LR), but again, identical cells/chemistry.

 

[3sr+buyer]

I don't know... whereas the other models write (EPA est.) besides the range figure, this one just writes (est) as if it was not based on proper EPA testing, and there's a "+" sign that no other model has,... I'm not sure we can infer that much yet.

Since EPA economy and range is a regulatory requirement, it is likely that testing for EPA economy and range for this version has not been completed yet. The + probably means that they are guessing that 325 is the low end of the range that they expect test results to give for EPA range.

 

[jjrandorin]

new Tesla Model-3 400 mile range, only for businesses in the UK

Electrek article "Tesla announced that it is making a new version of the Model 3 with the Long Range battery pack and a single RWD motor, but it’s only available to businesses in the UK. Model 3 with a Long Range battery pack, but it only has a single rear-wheel-drive motor ... 394 miles...

teslamotorsclub.com

394 Miles WLTP is going to be like 355 EPA which is going to be about 280 in actual usage.

In any case that "394 WLTP' means nothing, since WLTP is even more unrealistic than EPA range.

Here is the Same exact car, Model 3 LR, on teslas US website ("325+ EPA")

And Teslas UK Website: ("374 Mi WLTP")

If this doesnt show that "394 WLTP Model 3" is not actually a "400 mile tesla model 3" I am not sure what does

 

[MP3Mike]

Warranty duration has nothing to do with cell type or chemistry. Historically Tesla has used this as a cost containment and/or upsell measure on their cheaper cars - the original Model S 60 used identical cells to the larger 85 pack but had an 8 year 120k mile warranty instead of 8 years unlimited miles.

It has to do with cell wear. Given packs made with the same cells, a smaller pack goes through more "full charge cycles" after the same number of miles driven as a larger pack. So the smaller pack will always degrade faster/more given similar usage. So it makes sense that smaller pack would have a shorter warranty coverage period.