M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[Sean Mitchell]

Hello sir. I drive the same Colorado mountains you do in a RWD Model S with Michellin X-Ice winter tires. I have never had any issues on I-70 or any roads with snow for that matter. You shouldn't have any issues with your AWD Model 3. I run the Denver Tesla Club and have club members say even the RWD 3 with snow tires works incredibly well. I'd start with your tires first. Please send me a message if I can help further.

Howdy,

I live in the mountains of CO. We have big time Winter.

Yesterday I drove from the house to Denver. My car, M3 red brakes, didn't feel safe.

I have snow tires -- Michelin Alpin Pilot PA4.

I travel over two passes to get to Denver; Vail Pass, and the West approach to The Eisenhower Tunnel.

On the way up Vail Pass the car was slipping. Luckily, there wasn't much traffic and I could keep momentum going. Otherwise, I might have got stuck.

On the approach to the tunnel it was worse.

Now before I go on, the conditions yesterday were just about as bad as they get. Semis were getting towed going up to the tunnel. Cars without snow tires were having trouble. Vail Pass was bad, but the plows had come through once.

On the approach up to the tunnel, I didn't feel safe. Because, if I had to stop I don't believe I could have started again without going sideways. If I go sideways, I slide into the next lane - crash.

Worse, the wipers failed. Well, not fail. But when I switched to Auto, they went fast back and forth. So I couldn't use Auto. Auto doesn't work anyway, so no biggie. The point is, I couldn't turn off the wipers. I think the reason why, was they were caked with ice. Elon's software didn't plan for wipers caked with ice. Here's a vid:

This video is from the east side of the tunnel, heading down to Denver. The roads look like summer compared to what I'd just driven through.

I'd post videos of the car going slipping. I was going to. But for some reason, there's no files on my dash cam from yesterday. Something else Elon needs to fix.

I've driven this trip who knows how many times - in Audis and our HIPEVAN. Never once, have I felt unsafe. In fact I dominate on the trip, because I'm in an Audi or our Van. I'm the guy going around everyone. Now, I'm the guy struggling.

Maybe it's the 20" tires? Could be. Today I stopped by the Littleton Service Center to beyotch. The rep I talked to said, "You're not the first one we've heard from about this".

I'm going to get 18's and put Hakkapaliitta's on. Maybe that will do the trick. But it pisses me off that I have to dump a lot of dough ray me into the car to maybe -- maybe -- get the performance brother Elon promised on the website. Brother Elon says his cars do great in the Winter, that his All-Wheel Drive rocks. At this point I don't believe brother Elon has been where Winter really happens. The wiper video is proof positive.

The M3 with Red Brakes is not a car for the Colorado Mountains, when Winter is on. Nope. That doesn't mean it sucks, doesn't mean it's not adequate for places where there's less Winter.

So what's the solution? Brother Elon needs to be straight with people. And, he needs to make an 18" wheel set, pronto.

I wish I had the dash cam vids, so Brother Elon could watch his car fail. I'd have posted them. Maybe Brother Elon knew his car was tanking, and deleted the vids? Just kidding. Sort of.

Peace and love,

 

[Superspectral]

I have Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 N Spec tires on my P3D+. They do have the snow/mountain symbol on them. They are better than the summer tires which I can attest have zero traction under sleet conditions where the Alpins are perfectly fine. They are not a pure snow tire. Under very cold / or wet conditions they have great traction. I think they are meant to drive Performance in cold weather - zoom when it is 15F. While I’ve had 6 weeks of 20-32F weather-no snow. It has just warmed to 34-40 for a day and rained a couple of times. I drove on a bit of ice where I know if id have the summer tires I’d have been in the ditch. When it really snows-I’ll have an opinion on that. The OP implied that the brakes didn’t work in the cold. The issue actually seem like the Alpins didn’t meet his expectations.

 

[N54TT]

You are correct in your assessment of where we're at. Well done.

And I think from the start, I was careful to say this was about where I live. My posts don't say the car sucks in Winter. They say it's not safe, in certain conditions, in "where I live Winter".

Another point is that the car doesn't surpass Quattro. Hasn't Elon been quoted as saying Tesla's version of All Wheel Drive is the best? I think he has.

Finally, I completely agree that for most this is a non issue. My point of the post wasn't to rag on Tesla. It was to point out where they're falling short. I'm a shareholder, they need to hear from me. It was to offer my experience, to help others.

Peace and love,

Your quibble should be more with the tire companies and not Tesla. You could have the best AWD and traction control system in the world.....but when it comes down to it....the tires are the only thing that’s contacting the road/snow/ice. Other people with proper winter sets haven’t had issues, some have raved how good their awd and rwd model 3 was in the snow. I only got to briefly test my 19” set with Blizzak lm32’s once, in the freak early snow storm we had a couple weeks ago. But my initial impression was that it handled just as good as my wrx’s and g35x with similar performance winter tires. Try running the same 20” snow tire you have now...on an Audi and see how it performs....that would be the only way to fairly compare them.

Could Tesla better warn customers regarding winter/snow handling with the P3D+? I guess...but a quick build on the websites for BMW M3 and Audi RS3 (since Audi doesn’t sell the RS4 in the states....damn you AUDI!!).....don’t mention any caution for winter driving either. It’s the buyers responsibility to do the proper changes needed for their situation. In your case it sounds like a 20” winter tire isn’t going to cut it....whether its on p3d+, m3, c63 or RS@

 

[SageBrush]

OP: your tyres choices was a fail, not the car.
How fast were you driving ?

 

[spinbackwards]

Good morning, Feliz Navidad,

A couple of OP's here, I think mainly the cat from the great state of New Hampshire, have indicated that my expectations of my car were too high. That I bought the wrong car for where I live.

See this image from Tesla's website

Tesla infers that their All-Wheel is better than Audi -- "Unlike traditional All-Wheel Drive systems (read: Audi)....far better handling and traction control...you never have to worry about getting stuck on the road".

"Far better handling" means better than Audi.

"Getting stuck on the road" sure looks to me like I'm going to be covered in Winter. Because, how am I going to get "stuck on the road" in summer?

"Better traction control" sure looks to me like they're talking about Winter. Because who makes a big deal of traction control in the summer?

"You can safely continue to your destination" wasn't right in my case, on Wednesday.

And, they don't say that one has to buy different wheels to get "far better handling and traction control" and not have to worry about "getting stuck on the road". This copy is for the car right off the lot (with snow tires of course).

Tesla is making claims that where I live, don't live up to the hype. It's not like I live in the sticks. I live in Eagle County. Vail is 30 minutes East. Aspen is 90 minutes.

I was right to assume my car was going to rock in the Winter. Because it's right here, in black and white.

One more. Colorado is #5 in EV sales. We get a $5k rebate here. Colorado means mountains and snow. One would think, Tesla knows this, when designing and advertising their cars.

 

[spinbackwards]

OP: your tyres choices was a fail, not the car.
How fast were you driving ?

Gong. Disagree. See my last post. I have the only snow tires available for the car.

 

[spinbackwards]

Hello sir. I drive the same Colorado mountains you do in a RWD Model S with Michellin X-Ice winter tires. I have never had any issues on I-70 or any roads with snow for that matter. You shouldn't have any issues with your AWD Model 3. I run the Denver Tesla Club and have club members say even the RWD 3 with snow tires works incredibly well. I'd start with your tires first. Please send me a message if I can help further.

Howdy to you,

Driving the mountains isn't the same as living in them and driving them every day.

 

[Sean Mitchell]

I respect that. Used to live in Norway too. Well experience with snow. Happy to help if needed.

 

[spinbackwards]

Your quibble should be more with the tire companies and not Tesla. You could have the best AWD and traction control system in the world.....but when it comes down to it....the tires are the only thing that’s contacting the road/snow/ice. Other people with proper winter sets haven’t had issues, some have raved how good their awd and rwd model 3 was in the snow. I only got to briefly test my 19” set with Blizzak lm32’s once, in the freak early snow storm we had a couple weeks ago. But my initial impression was that it handled just as good as my wrx’s and g35x with similar performance winter tires. Try running the same 20” snow tire you have now...on an Audi and see how it performs....that would be the only way to fairly compare them.

Could Tesla better warn customers regarding winter/snow handling with the P3D+? I guess...but a quick build on the websites for BMW M3 and Audi RS3 (since Audi doesn’t sell the RS4 in the states....damn you AUDI!!).....don’t mention any caution for winter driving either. It’s the buyers responsibility to do the proper changes needed for their situation. In your case it sounds like a 20” winter tire isn’t going to cut it....whether its on p3d+, m3, c63 or RS@

Disagree. See my post with Tesla's marketing copy.

"Other people haven't had issues" is anecdotal at best. That's like saying, "Hey. Some guy wrote a review -- he says the widget is great".

I wrote about my experience, what happened. I've written my car has slipped when it wasn't near as bad. I have other cars to compare to. I live where Winter happens. My experience is qualified.

 

[lolder]

The issue is the click-bait title of the thread. Shame on you ! If your excuse is the name of your car is "M3 Red Brakes", that's even worse.

 

[spinbackwards]

Rats. I really wish the freaking dash cam vids had come through. That way the world and Brother Elon could see for themselves.

Note to self: Learn how to use the dash cam.

 

[spinbackwards]

The issue is the click-bait title of the thread. Shame on you !

Nah. What do I have to gain from said, "click bait"? What? You think this is a ball, typing to strangers on the Internet?

 

[spinbackwards]

Your quibble should be more with the tire companies and not Tesla. You could have the best AWD and traction control system in the world.....but when it comes down to it....the tires are the only thing that’s contacting the road/snow/ice. Other people with proper winter sets haven’t had issues, some have raved how good their awd and rwd model 3 was in the snow. I only got to briefly test my 19” set with Blizzak lm32’s once, in the freak early snow storm we had a couple weeks ago. But my initial impression was that it handled just as good as my wrx’s and g35x with similar performance winter tires. Try running the same 20” snow tire you have now...on an Audi and see how it performs....that would be the only way to fairly compare them.

Could Tesla better warn customers regarding winter/snow handling with the P3D+? I guess...but a quick build on the websites for BMW M3 and Audi RS3 (since Audi doesn’t sell the RS4 in the states....damn you AUDI!!).....don’t mention any caution for winter driving either. It’s the buyers responsibility to do the proper changes needed for their situation. In your case it sounds like a 20” winter tire isn’t going to cut it....whether its on p3d+, m3, c63 or RS@

Well, if not feeling safe qualifies as a "quibble" to you, so be it. But it aint to me.

And, this aint the tire company. This is on Tesla.

 

[spinbackwards]

I have Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 N Spec tires on my P3D+. They do have the snow/mountain symbol on them. They are better than the summer tires which I can attest have zero traction under sleet conditions where the Alpins are perfectly fine. They are not a pure snow tire. Under very cold / or wet conditions they have great traction. I think they are meant to drive Performance in cold weather - zoom when it is 15F. While I’ve had 6 weeks of 20-32F weather-no snow. It has just warmed to 34-40 for a day and rained a couple of times. I drove on a bit of ice where I know if id have the summer tires I’d have been in the ditch. When it really snows-I’ll have an opinion on that. The OP implied that the brakes didn’t work in the cold. The issue actually seem like the Alpins didn’t meet his expectations.

I blew it with title of the post. But I thought you guys would get I call my car "red brakes". You guys are kinda slow.

If I could change the title to the post I would.

 

[spinbackwards]

I'm going skiing.
Here's a song for y'all

 

[SageBrush]

Gong. Disagree. See my last post. I have the only snow tires available for the car.

Model 3 20" Sport Wheel and Winter Tire Package

How fast were you driving ?

 

[brkaus]

I blew it with title of the post. But I thought you guys would get I call my car "red brakes". You guys are kinda slow.

If I could change the title to the post I would.

go to one of your posts. Click "report" and ask the mods to change the title.

 

[voip-ninja]

I blew it with title of the post. But I thought you guys would get I call my car "red brakes". You guys are kinda slow.

If I could change the title to the post I would.

You can send a message to a moderator and ask them to change the thread title. You can also do this by simply doing a "report" on your original post and ask them to amend the thread title.

Easy peasy as they say.

You are dismissing a lot of constructive feedback from a lot of owners with experience driving these cars in winter conditions. Just because you have other vehicles that do better doesn't mean that the Tesla is a write-off.

The winter driving experience essentially comes down to four things;

1. Vehicle weight and other handling characteristics.
2. Wheel+tire choice.
3. Vehicle traction control and power delivery.
4. Driver experience including speed being driven, etc.

You are dismissive that #2 can be the culprit even though others report they have driven in similar conditions as you describe with different tires and have not had problems.

You are also refusing to acknowledge that the problem you experienced could be a combination of the above items and have instead decided that the problem is largely weighted towards item #3, the way the Model 3 delivers power and how its traction control works.

Other owners have given you ideas on things you could do to reduce power delivery and potentially improve the performance but you are outright dismissive.

Tesla does not say that the Model 3 is better than any other car, they say that their dual motor system and traction control are superior to other designs.

BMW similarly tries to claim that their traction control system (electronic) is superior to a mechanic system (Audi or Subaru) for various technical reasons. This is called marketing. My BMWs with x-drive never performed in the snow as well as my Audis did. Not even close.

The only way to know, REALLY KNOW, how the cars compare is to drive them back to back in the same conditions with the same tires. Then you'd know. It is possible that you'd discover that the Tesla is doing better than you think it's doing or that all it takes is a very minor adjustment to your driving style to get adequate performance out of it.

It is indisputable that the tire you've chosen is a winter performance tire and NOT a dedicated winter driving tire. In the mountains you want a dedicated winter tire, possibly even a studded one.

You also need to acknowledge that you are driving a car that puts down almost 500 ft/lbs of torque, an absolute BEAST! It also has no gearing, so unlike your other cars it is not going to go into a taller gear to deliver less torque at lower speeds in winter conditions. In winter torque is your enemy.

 

[JayM3]

I have the 18" on our Dual Motor LR. We put the Sotozzero II's on it and cannot wait to try them out on I70 through the Colorado Rockies this weekend. I hope we hit snow.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm going skiing.
Here's a song for y'all

Enjoy your skiing.

Do let us know how the new wheel combination does, when you get it. As others have mentioned, there are ways to get new wheels quickly and ways to get them slowly... If you feel your car is unsafe as currently equipped, I would recommend going with the most expedient option, to minimize risk.

And please use chill mode. I have not seen you say you were using it during your scary experience (sorry if I missed it; this thread really blew up!), and it is really the only way to drive in winter unless you WANT to spin the wheels. I know you don’t like to have to flip switches, and it is not like an Audi, but you can just leave chill mode on all winter...