M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[cstork]

I have a AWD M3 in Colorado with snow tires. Here is what I think is going on: 1) The M3 has very different (and balanced) weight distribution than ICE cars with heavy fronts. The sliding we are used to with ICE cars is different with the M3. 2) The AWD M3 sends more (but not all) power to the rear axle, so the rear axle breaks free first when accelerating on snow. With ICE cars, most power goes to the front axle even with AWD cars. Having the front axle break free first feels totally different. 3) It's easy to accelerate too fast with the Tesla on snow.
Overall, I think the M3 does have the rear tires break free sooner than my Subaru when accelerating the same amount. I think most professional drivers prefer to have the rear break free first, but it feels weird.
---> For braking, the Tesla seems to do fine--no different from my Subaru. In general, I think the Tesla does fine in the snow--just don't accelerate too fast, and if you do slide, reduce your power.

 

[SageBrush]

I think the Tesla does fine in the snow--just don't accelerate too fast, and if you do slide, reduce your power.

I've played with this a bit. The traction control kicks in very quickly

 

[cstork]

Perhaps Tesla can have a "snow driving mode" that sends more power to the front axle, especially during slower acceleration. I wonder if people will appreciate the difference, but judging by this thread, perhaps.

 

[TheFuture]

Here's a vid of my P3D in the snow, 3 days ago, Michelin PA4's on my stock 20" performance wheels. This thing is complete #beastmode! I've had some insane previous AWD cars to compare it to as well.

Are people not seeing this vid? What more are people wanting & expecting? I feel bad that others aren't having the same experience I have had thus far with their P3D's. I'm even running 235/35r20 snow tires in this vid, not even small wheeled, thick rubbered winters and this thing is a beast. Coming down this hill was as equally amazing of an experience as going up. I had absolutely ZERO slippage, no ABS drama, not a single peep or slip of anything. Yeah, as someone else had said, it was "dry, hero snow" but it was still deep snow, the hill was steep, a lot steeper than the vid portraits and the P3D was amazing. The P3D in mega cold, wet & icy conditions for me has been equally as good. I'm an avid skier, I average 30 ski days a season on the slopes so I'm traveling quite a bit to & from ski resorts, in every condition imagineable up & down canyons and I have zero complaints. For me, coming from owning AMG Mercedes & S & RS model Audi's, this vehicle is as good or better of an AWD system as I've ever owned. Take my opinion as you will peeps but It's 100% my experience thus far and it's been nothing short of amazing.

 

[GregD60]

Howdy and Hey Now,

Yeah, definitely had, "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" thinking 20's would work.

Tonight on the way home from Denver to Eagle it was cold, low 20's to low teens. Roads were wet, some heavy snow in places. I used 130 rated miles for a 70 mile drive.

So when the roads are snowy and it's cold, I use the 2:1 rule too, just to be safe.

I let a little air out of the tires, car felt pretty good.

Re: the slipping. The car slips, but it corrects itself. Now I'm used to it. I'm sure I'll get better traction once I throw the 18" Hakka's on. Hopefully I'll get the wheels soon. Seems like T Sportline is the way to go.

There's a thread about customers having to wait for wheels. Hey I'm just grateful T Sportline is there.

Wipers seem to work better now with the latest update. Still not great, but way better.

Hey man. I'm driving a Tesla. Helping Mother Earth. It's super cool. I'm not going to beach or moan.

Ski rack will be here Thursday. Will post pics once it's mounted.

Peace and love!

I've been experimenting with my AWD non-P in the snow, and the slipping before the traction control kicks in is somewhat different from pretty much every other car that I've driven with traction control, and it's rather disconcerting. In standard mode the Model 3 is definitely allowing quite a bit of slippage before the traction control engages, then when it does engage, it does so rather abruptly, and kind of jerks the car back. It seems to over correct a bit, so that if you stay in the throttle, the rear of the car will wag in the opposite direction until the traction control compensates for it. It feels like the proverbial tank slapper oversteer, except it never gets that far out of shape, and you can actually keep the throttle floored while the car claws up the hill very rapidly, although it's moving around on the road far more than I would like. Also, I instinctively applied some opposite lock the first few times this happened, but that only makes things worse when the traction control does kick in. You're better off just steering where you're trying to go, and waiting for the car to figure it out. Very uninstinctive for those of us who are used to driving cars without traction control systems.

Standard regen seems to have a similar problem. When it's operating at full power, it's like a pretty solid braking effort, and can easily break the tires loose on snow and ice. Again, the traction control system seems to be rather slow to engage, and when it does, it does so aggressively and kind of jerks the car around. It definitely feels hazardous, whether it is or not.

I've also experimented with Chill mode and Low regen, and these two options ameliorate the above effects substantially. Without the instant torque hit to the tires on acceleration, they don't break loose so easily and quickly, and it seems the traction control system is either better able to keep up since everything is happening slower, or perhaps it's just programmed to intervene more quickly when Chill mode is engaged. The result is much smoother response in the car, and a far less disconcerting driving experience. I still don't think that Tesla's traction control system works as well as some other systems out there, but it is in the ballpark, and some appropriate tweaking could probably make it among the best.

Tesla should probably emphasize Chill and Low regen more for low traction situations. Also, I'd love to have more modes available on the traction control. Even on the non-P cars like mine, I think a track mode would be nice to have in some situations, call the current mode a "sport" mode, add another mode that engages more quickly as the "standard" mode, and continue the chill mode for when things are really slippery. I agree with you that the default behavior of Tesla's traction control system without changing anything in slippery conditions is rather poor and should be changed primarily for drivers who aren't very familiar with the car. That said, I don't really see it as much of an issue to engage chill mode and low regen before heading out when conditions are likely to be slippery.

Regarding tires and wheels, I think you'll notice a distinct difference with the Hakka R3s and 18" wheels, with the vast majority of the difference being due to the tires rather than the wheel size, but it will be more of an incremental difference than a night and day difference like all season tires versus winter tires. In my experience if a good dedicated winter tire like the R3s, Blizzaks, or Xices are a 10 in snow and ice, and a good all season tire is a 5, then a performance winter tire like the PA4s or the Sottozeros are an 8 or 9. I actually think you'll notice a greater difference by simply engaging Chill and Low regen modes on the car.

 

[surfrasch]

I've also experimented with Chill mode and Low regen, and these two options ameliorate the above effects substantially. Without the instant torque hit to the tires on acceleration, they don't break loose so easily and quickly, and it seems the traction control system is either better able to keep up since everything is happening slower, or perhaps it's just programmed to intervene more quickly when Chill mode is engaged. The result is much smoother response in the car, and a far less disconcerting driving experience. I still don't think that Tesla's traction control system works as well as some other systems out there, but it is in the ballpark, and some appropriate tweaking could probably make it among the best.

Pretty sure chill and low regen settings are recommended in the owners manual for snow conditions.

 

[voip-ninja]

Pretty sure chill and low regen settings are recommended in the owners manual for snow conditions.

Many AWD cars that have inferior electronic AWD systems have a physical "traction" button that can be engaged to force power into a FWD or 50/50 bias.

My BMW had a snowflake icon that would come on when the car determined that the outside temperature was low enough that there could be ice on overpasses, etc.

Pretty trivial for Tesla to do something similar with an icon on the screen that come son in lower temps, the owner touches it to engage snow driving rather than pecking around in menus trying to do this stuff.

My wife, who is not a technically oriented person, wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of figuring out that to get the car to behave better she needed to mess with settings called "chill" and "regen".... but if there was a simple toggle button to engage those settings she could probably figure that out.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Many AWD cars that have inferior electronic AWD systems have a physical "traction" button that can be engaged to force power into a FWD or 50/50 bias.

My BMW had a snowflake icon that would come on when the car determined that the outside temperature was low enough that there could be ice on overpasses, etc.

Pretty trivial for Tesla to do something similar with an icon on the screen that come son in lower temps, the owner touches it to engage snow driving rather than pecking around in menus trying to do this stuff.

My wife, who is not a technically oriented person, wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of figuring out that to get the car to behave better she needed to mess with settings called "chill" and "regen".... but if there was a simple toggle button to engage those settings she could probably figure that out.

Many have created a "Snow" driving profile which allows us to quickly toggle between our regular profiles and a profile with chill mode and low regen.

 

[voip-ninja]

Many have created a "Snow" driving profile which allows us to quickly toggle between our regular profiles and a profile with chill mode and low regen.

Yes that's something I need to do and certainly a good option for now.

I just think there's more that Tesla can do in this and other areas for owners in cold weather climates that are not huge lifts for them.

The Germans and Detroit do much better in this area and I'm sure part of the reason is that they have customers in their immediate proximity who deal with serious winter driving, parking cars outside for days in below freezing temps, etc.

 

[StealthP3D]

I have 7 ski days in the Model 3 (P3D) and it's a beast in the snow, the best driving ski car I've ever had if not for the relatively low 5.5" of ground clearance. The way the electronic driver aids work is amazing and more invisible than any other car I've driven in the snow. I haven't had any of that pussy Colorado dry powder, this is snow on compacted ice, thick, sloppy, greasy stuff that gives more ordinary AWD's a challenge. The kind of snow that you can't get down to the pavement because it just packs into wet ice.

The Model 3 handles it like child's play. I have Pirelli Sottozero 2's on the P3D so I think with a more extreme winter tire I would want to go winter rally racing!

Edit: I've played around with different regen settings, slip-start, etc. I've found it to do really well without changing a single setting. I actually feel like I have more control with regular regen but I recommend that anyone nervous or new to winter driving use low regen as the Owner's Manual recommends. You need to have good throttle control and know what you're doing to avoid slides with regular regen but I do prefer this, especially for sporty driving in the snow because it gives me the best corner entry and seamless transition from the "brakes" (regen) to acceleration. There is something magical about regen braking in the snow - it's so darn consistent compared to putting a clamp (brake caliper) on a metal disc. In the RWD models it may make more sense to put regen on "Low" but with the AWD P3D, regen braking is magical when it gets slippery.

 

[JayM3]

I have 7 ski days in the Model 3 (P3D) and it's a beast in the snow, the best driving ski car I've ever had if not for the relatively low 5.5" of ground clearance.

Great info and an awesome pic. I too have the Sottozero II's on our Dual Motor LR, and they're awesome. When it does slip, it handles itself very very well and inspires confidence to let it get loose in the snow. I do keep it on low regen and chill mode in the most slippery of conditions though.

 

[StealthP3D]

Many have created a "Snow" driving profile which allows us to quickly toggle between our regular profiles and a profile with chill mode and low regen.

I don't get the advantage of "Chill Mode" on snow or ice with a car as good as the Model 3 at finding traction and avoiding spinning the tires up. I've found the throttle response to be very linear and predictable in "Sport Mode" and even if I get ham-footed with the throttle, the electronic driver aids manage the traction better than any human could by seamlessly directing power only to wheels that can make use of it. When I try "Chill Mode" it just makes the throttle feel more nebulous.

This car just rips on slippery surfaces and is so easy to drive fast and maintain control compared to other ICE cars I have experience with (Subaru's, Volvo's, VW's and Fords). The acceleration on snow is impressive with none of that "on again, off again" surging that other cars have, just steady, strong acceleration that pulls smoothly and steadily at the limit of available traction. I feel like this is the first car I've driven where I don't have to drive gently to avoid the electronic driver aids from kicking in, it actually works best when you drive hard enough to be leaning on the electronic aids all the time. Of course, this puts you at irresponsible speeds but you can also just drive normally and let the electronic aids kick in only if you make a mistake or misjudge a corner.

I love the confidence-inspiring driving dynamics of this car in the snow and ice. If the AWD Model 3 has a downside in terms of snow and ice driving dynamics it's that the smooth and predictable electronic driver aids might inspire too much confidence in really slippery conditions.

 

[PatP]

Interesting article: An exclusive look at Tesla's extreme cold testing facility

And the video: Sliding around in Teslas at the company's Alaska proving ground - Video

 

[roguenode]

Took my P3D+ out into some fresh snow recently and also found the back end can kick out slightly more than I expected but is quickly corrected. I'm running 19's with Sottozero 3's. My past cars include Audi's/Subarus. After a few runs up and down my road, which has a 1/2 mile section averaging just under 14% grade with a steeply banked hairpin, I found it fairly predictable and settled on Sport mode with low regen. I usually run Nokian's. They may have held a bit better, but these Sottozero's are so much better in non-extreme conditions, I may be a convert, at least for this vehicle.

 

[silentcorp]

Some snow/ice on the local road here today, without chill mode on my back slips out (P3D-) pretty consistently. I set a new profile to "chill" and didn't have any issues whatsoever. Feels much more secure now.

 

[PatP]

I don't get the advantage of "Chill Mode" on snow or ice with a car as good as the Model 3 at finding traction and avoiding spinning the tires up. I've found the throttle response to be very linear and predictable in "Sport Mode" and even if I get ham-footed with the throttle, the electronic driver aids manage the traction better than any human could by seamlessly directing power only to wheels that can make use of it. When I try "Chill Mode" it just makes the throttle feel more nebulous.

If you look at the video I just posted, you'll see that the Model 3 enables some slipping - but it's very safe. I personally like it that way - it's way more fun.

However, I think some people less used to snow driving would prefer a more stable Model S style handling - and chill mode helps in that regards. For example, my father felt his Audi Quattro was more stable than his Model 3 - it's just a question of stability control / torque tuning vs perception.

 

[GregD60]

I don't get the advantage of "Chill Mode" on snow or ice with a car as good as the Model 3 at finding traction and avoiding spinning the tires up. I've found the throttle response to be very linear and predictable in "Sport Mode" and even if I get ham-footed with the throttle, the electronic driver aids manage the traction better than any human could by seamlessly directing power only to wheels that can make use of it. When I try "Chill Mode" it just makes the throttle feel more nebulous.

This car just rips on slippery surfaces and is so easy to drive fast and maintain control compared to other ICE cars I have experience with (Subaru's, Volvo's, VW's and Fords). The acceleration on snow is impressive with none of that "on again, off again" surging that other cars have, just steady, strong acceleration that pulls smoothly and steadily at the limit of available traction. I feel like this is the first car I've driven where I don't have to drive gently to avoid the electronic driver aids from kicking in, it actually works best when you drive hard enough to be leaning on the electronic aids all the time. Of course, this puts you at irresponsible speeds but you can also just drive normally and let the electronic aids kick in only if you make a mistake or misjudge a corner.

I love the confidence-inspiring driving dynamics of this car in the snow and ice. If the AWD Model 3 has a downside in terms of snow and ice driving dynamics it's that the smooth and predictable electronic driver aids might inspire too much confidence in really slippery conditions.

Maybe the above is true in the snow conditions you're experiencing, but around here where it's normal to have dry, snowy, and icy patches all intermingled on a short stretch of road, the Model 3's electronic controls of the antiskid and traction control systems are anything but smooth, steady, and seamless. The car jerks from side to side while accelerating or slowing down, or going through corners. It does this both while accelerating and decelerating on regen. The antiskid and traction control systems allow a fair amount of slippage before engaging, and I can drive a car with no electronic traction aids far more smoothly in slippery conditions than the Model 3. Engaging chill mode seems to smooth the responses out a fair amount. Also, under braking, the ABS system works fairly smoothly without all the jerking around of the other traction systems.

The electronic nannies allow enough of a slide that at first I would start making steering corrections before they even kicked in, and then when they kicked in they exaggerated my steering corrections and really tossed the car around. I took it to an empty parking lot to try and figure out what was going on, and determined that the Tesla system just allows noticeably more slippage before engaging than the systems on most other cars. If you just let it do its own thing, it works fairly well, although it still feels rather disconcerting in my opinion. That said, the systems are brutally effective, and the car will maintain a strong pace in slippery conditions without losing control. You just have to let the car go to do its own thing, and trust that all those electronic systems keep you out of trouble. It's not an easy thing to do for those of us who are used to actually having to control the vehicle ourselves.

 

[StealthP3D]

Interesting article: An exclusive look at Tesla's extreme cold testing facility

And the video: Sliding around in Teslas at the company's Alaska proving ground - Video

I'm impressed! That video was just released today.

Now that is a great article/video for anyone who doubts the Model 3's snow/ice performance. It supports everything I've been saying since I had my Model 3 out in the winter nasties last December. Steven Ewing confirmed my observation that the electronic driver aids in the Model 3 (not in track mode) allow the rear end to back out 15-20 degrees before kicking in and stabilizing the amount of yaw. This is really amazing, it helps the car go around ice/snow corners even faster and I've never felt it on any other car (apparently, not even the Model s and X allow this). You just stay on the throttle and turn the wheel more or less to hold the desired line. If traction increases part way through the corner you will accelerate out at the maximum possible speed.

Every other car with DSTC I've driven in the snow and ice rewarded the driver for not letting the aids kick in very much if at all, especially the traction control. The aids in the Model 3 apparently react fast enough that the engineers can program it to give the driver more control by letting a little "spin-up" happen. This transforms the winter driving dynamics for the better. I would put an AWD Model 3 up against any 4000 lb. AWD car on a snowy/icy race course. Given equal tires, I'm confident the Model 3 would win.

Those of you complaining about snow/ice performance should check the suitability of their tires (and especially their air pressures). Because the Model 3 electronic controls are such a large part of its excellent snow/ice performance, I think it's important to keep them accurately inflated. I keep mine to within 1/2 psi of each other.

Also, those of you who drive their winter tires on bare/dry pavement, please keep the pressures up! Winter tires can lose their amazing snow/ice qualities if the heat cycle too much (get too hot from freeway driving with low pressures). I would suggest a minimum COLD tire pressure of 44 psi, more if you will have 4 people or heavy cargo on the highway. I run 46 PSI COLD in my Pirelli Sottozero 2's and would increase it if I had more than one passenger or heavy cargo. The TPMS often reports 49 PSI after a good drive. This is NOT too high. In fact, it's OK for the TPMS to report pressures above 50 PSI because this is a WARM pressure reading while the 50 PSI limit on the tires is a COLD limit.

Higher pressures will prevent your winter tires from turning into all-season radials. The higher pressure is particularly important in early and late winter when road temps might be as warm as 50 degrees and bare/dry. Higher pressure is also important if you will be driving curvy bare roads hard. This can cause tread temperatures to soar. Once your winter rubber has been heat cycled too many times (or become too hot even one time) there is no reversing the loss of snow/ice grip. This is not BS, it is very real and little-known info.

 

[StealthP3D]

That said, the systems are brutally effective, and the car will maintain a strong pace in slippery conditions without losing control. You just have to let the car go to do its own thing, and trust that all those electronic systems keep you out of trouble. It's not an easy thing to do for those of us who are used to actually having to control the vehicle ourselves.

I am 55 years old and have been a winter sports enthusiast my entire life. I have also worked at two different ski areas over a 10 year period, so yes, I am accustomed to "actually having to control the vehicle" myself (DSTC was not popular until around 2000). Early anti-lock brakes were a crude affair that could easily be out-performed by a skilled driver (unless the traction surface varied significantly between the left and right tracks).

The driver aids on the Model 3 are so advanced I can't rightfully call them "nannies". It doesn't hurt my ego or my manhood to admit there is no way I could negotiate corners in the snow/ice as quickly without them as I can with them. And much more safely. Just look at the portion of the video where Steve Ewing does the moose avoidance maneuver with and without the e-aids turned on. He is a high-skill snow/ice driver. The e-aids do things that the best driver in the world cannot. I don't care how good you are, you cannot brake the inside rear wheel independently of the other wheels without e-aids.

If you are saying the Model 3 is amazing and you need to trust it to get the most performance out of it, then I agree. If you are saying it's difficult to do, I disagree.

As to Standard or Low Regen, yes, there are conditions where Low Regen (the setting recommended in the OM for snow/ice) would be better. What I was saying is that on slippery but consistent conditions, high regen actually works better for fast driving. Usually, winter storms produce consistent traction conditions, not fast-changing conditions like those that are commonly found after much traffic and/or melt/refreeze (icy patches interspersed with bare pavement for example). So, yes, if the low traction surface is not consistent, then use Low Regen.

 

[GregD60]

I am 55 years old and have been a winter sports enthusiast my entire life. I have also worked at two different ski areas over a 10 year period, so yes, I am accustomed to "actually having to control the vehicle" myself (DSTC was not popular until around 2000). Early anti-lock brakes were a crude affair that could easily be out-performed by a skilled driver (unless the traction surface varied significantly between the left and right tracks).

The driver aids on the Model 3 are so advanced I can't rightfully call them "nannies". It doesn't hurt my ego or my manhood to admit there is no way I could negotiate corners in the snow/ice as quickly without them as I can with them. And much more safely. Just look at the portion of the video where Steve Ewing does the moose avoidance maneuver with and without the e-aids turned on. He is a high-skill snow/ice driver. The e-aids do things that the best driver in the world cannot. I don't care how good you are, you cannot brake the inside rear wheel independently of the other wheels without e-aids.

If you are saying the Model 3 is amazing and you need to trust it to get the most performance out of it, then I agree. If you are saying it's difficult to do, I disagree.

As to Standard or Low Regen, yes, there are conditions where Low Regen (the setting recommended in the OM for snow/ice) would be better. What I was saying is that on slippery but consistent conditions, high regen actually works better for fast driving. Usually, winter storms produce consistent traction conditions, not fast-changing conditions like those that are commonly found after much traffic and/or melt/refreeze (icy patches interspersed with bare pavement for example). So, yes, if the low traction surface is not consistent, then use Low Regen.

I agree with what you're saying here, but I'd highly recommend Chill mode as well unless you have a fair amount of room to play as in the video. That 15 to 20 degrees of tail out equates to a couple of feet of space. When dealing with traffic and city roads in icy or inconsistent conditions, you may have only inches before you hit another car or some other obstacle, and this can occur in icy conditions at any speed, even with snow tires.

I really think that Tesla's default mode with their traction control systems in the Model 3 should engage more quickly and allow very little slide or drift before engaging. The current standard mode should be a sport mode that can be set by the driver. Behaving in a fashion that is substantially different from other cars as the default mode will lead to accidents.