MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[FredMt]

Do we have a picture of the SR+ pack label with an L in the code or something, or the delivery documentation in Europe?

All SR+ that came to Germany were E1LR,

In France too, only SR+ with E1LR on vehicle identification paper. This is called the "gray card" in France, in this document field D.2 indicates the type of vehicule, and at the moment for SR+ we only have E1LR sequence.

 

[Npap]

Do you have any data for the Long Range as well? Does it still have the same data that we had in December?

 

[FredMt]

Do you have any data for the Long Range as well? Does it still have the same data that we had in December?

For LR in France it s same situation than at the end of 2020: we receive at the moment E5D LG and E3CD (new name of E3D) Pana. It s seems that there is more E5D than E3CD, it s a reality on the forum (but perhaps it s wrong at global point of view because all future buyers are not on the forum...). No LR with E3LD... but it s not a surprise. Maybe in the next few months

 

[thinger]

Thanks. I had not been paying attention to the SR entries before when you posted this, I guess. And it sounds like L-type deliveries were confirmed to Germany for the SR+. Did anyone happen to take a picture of the pack label on an SR+? I think we have FWPN values from SMT that are ~53.5kWh now (I can't remember)?

Interesting. Guess they have unleashed about 2% improvement, are going to wait on unleashing that additional capacity until the LR gets more range, probably. Seems like they could probably get to about 270 rated miles (EPA) for the current SR+, as shipped, simply by using available capacity. Maybe they'll never increase it; who knows.



That's definitely been debated here, but there's a very decent argument that there's no need to have extra capacity to make the newer 580km WLTP rating. Can review the many prior pages for all the arguments! The summary is: there is a solid reason that looks quantitatively (not just qualitatively) correct that 3.6% more range can be achieved with 3.5% less capacity due to an improvement in efficiency of about 7%. But people have various opinions!



Note that this test was done with the latest software. There has been about a 7% improvement in efficiency over the last couple years, and that seems to have come from software alone, based on the 2020 Performance 18" and the 2021 raw EPA results (the cycles that don't have any significant impact of heat pump, for 2021) compared to prior years. This information is readily publicly available for your perusal.

So you'd expect a 2019 to have about 600km WLTP range with the efficiency improvement. But anyway this has already been covered and hotly debated. Though mostly the debate centered around whether Tesla had been honest or not, not the raw results.

Hard to say. We need trust Tesla when they tell something.

On wltp heatpump/ac is not used so that won't use at all energy.

 

[eivissa]

Based to this energy usage is same these. So only way to get longer range is use bigger battery.

If you take this as a scientific or WLTP comparable test...maybe. I don't. Then again I don't see a point in reigniting this debate.

The facts are:
-the LR 82KWH was certified for European roads on the 28th of December 2020 (after that video was made).
-the LR with this battery is variant E3LD.
-no European LR customer so far got a COC with variant E3LD.

We have seen customers rejecting their car / cancelling their order when they've got the paperwork and saw E5D. Imagine the moment when the first LR customer gets E3LD and writes about it. Customers will immediately start rejecting their E3CD and obviously E5D. Why pay the same for less? Fully understandable!

Unless...that car is advertised separately (LR+?) and also priced higher accordingly.

Some side notes:
-Tesla didn't even present a 82KWH LR to the EPA in the states. They went with the same battery that they've been using since the start in 2018 (correct me if I am wrong). That is still the "smallest" battery they are putting in a Long Range there. No LG 77KWH and no PANA 82KWH.
-In Europe we get the LG 77KWH, so it is likely that Tesla has designated this battery to be the smallest one. Hence it is also likely that they, like in the states, used this pack for their testing at the authorities.

Different side note:
The E5D LG pack is actually a great battery for colder climate regions. I have mentioned that before and cant emphasize it enough. I would choose that battery over the E3CD (2170C) in a long range anytime...if I weren't already driving the Performance 82.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

On wltp heatpump/ac is not used so that won't use at all energy.

Yes, that's my point. But we can let this debate rest. It's been litigated before, and if you review the 800+ prior posts you'll see all the evidence for and against this. The data is in the public domain too for all to see.

They went with the same battery that they've been using since the start in 2018 (correct me if I am wrong).

That's correct, at least in terms of energy capacity (there are probably other subtle changes). The EPA test actually shows slightly LESS energy (about 1kWh; 78.6kWh vs. 79.8kWh in 2020) on the 2021 LR AWD test than in prior years, but it's normal for there to be some random variation, so that's probably why - it just made the vehicle slightly lower rated in miles than it would have been otherwise. (I don't think the SMT readbacks suggest any significant change in available energy vs. prior years, and certainly the FPWN value is identical as we all know from this thread.) There are other possibilities too, like they're shutting down earlier, once energy remaining hits zero, but no one really explores how this works carefully, so it's hard to determine, nor does it matter much.

No LG 77KWH and no PANA 82KWH.

Right, no evidence of those in the LR non-P in the US.

 

[FredMt]

We have seen customers rejecting their car / cancelling their order when they've got the paperwork and saw E5D. Imagine the moment when the first LR customer gets E3LD and writes about it. Customers will immediately start rejecting their E3CD and obviously E5D. Why pay the same for less? Fully understandable!

Unless...that car is advertised separately (LR+?) and also priced higher accordingly.

Yes i suppose that Tesla is still in transition. Tesla go on with migration of battery production chains to Panasonic 2170 L.
For Performance model battery pack, it was ok at the begining (end of 2020); At the moment it's seems to be ok for SR+ battery packs (E1LR). Next step will probably impact LR.

 

[JCtx]

Hey gang, has anybody here figured out if it's more efficient to use HVAC to heat the cabin in manual mode, with the fan only, or in auto mode? I use manual mode (A/C off), and the cabin heats fine to my 69/70 setting. As soon as I put it in 'auto', I can hear more racket. It sounds like an A/C compressor kicks in, but with the heatpump, doesn't a 'compressor' has to be running all the time??? At least that was my understanding after watching a not-very-well-done video of the system.

A more pointed question: If I'm using just the fan in manual mode, what's exactly happening with the heatpump? And does the heatpump have its own compressor, besides the A/C one? Thanks gang. Just want to understand the system better. Thank you.

 

[AAKEE]

Hey gang, has anybody here figured out if it's more efficient to use HVAC to heat the cabin in manual mode, with the fan only, or in auto mode? I use manual mode (A/C off), and the cabin heats fine to my 69/70 setting. As soon as I put it in 'auto', I can hear more racket. It sounds like an A/C compressor kicks in, but with the heatpump, doesn't a 'compressor' has to be running all the time??? At least that was my understanding after watching a not-very-well-done video of the system.

A more pointed question: If I'm using just the fan in manual mode, what's exactly happening with the heatpump? And does the heatpump have its own compressor, besides the A/C one? Thanks gang. Just want to understand the system better. Thank you.

You most probable can not change the way the heat pump works. Dont know about differen sounds but that is how it should be.

As in all other cars with HVAC the difference between Auto and Manual is that in Auto the software controlls the fan speed and from which outlets the air is coming. In manual you control these.

By the way, I have that problem with the heatpump( probably that/those pressure sensors). Lost heat once completely about new year. Havent had a complete loss since then but I hade bad heating capacity early in january. (1000km to the Sercivecenter so I wait until I know a trip will fix the issue.)

Anyway, after any of the software updates I dont loose heating capability. But sometimes I feel vibrations in the steering wheel, and if driving really slow or out of the car I can hear the heatpump work in a very angry noisy mode. Most probable this is the direct heat mode, where it isnt working as a heatpump but produces heat by direct 1:1 ( like the older hair dryer heater).
I now have seen this enough times to have reilable data of the consumption. Seen it about 1/2 to 1/3 of all trips lately so I have trips both with the heatpump working as it should and int the driect 1:1 mode.

Same drive, same speed same temps the consumption driving to work is like this( example with cirka -10C)

Heatpump works: 165-170Wh/km
heatpump dont: 235-240Wh/Km

This is a 40% increase in consumption.
I see the battery power parked/heating on goes to 6kw instead of about 1.5 or so. Also, it gets way hotter inside with the same temps setting and its fairly hot around the feets.

Maybe this is the difference we would se between a heatpump m3p and a non heatpump m3p in the same conditions.

 

[Npap]

Do we also have any idea if the model Y has the 2170L battery?

 

[MY-Y]

My June 2020 MY AB feels very sluggish at low SoC (<25%). One test I just did was:
SoC: 25%
Voltage: 340
Cell temp: 63.5F
Max power: 144 kW

With a 98% SoC, the max power is 356 kW when the battery if 75 degrees F.

Car is still very fast down to ~30% or so. At highway speeds below 20%, it's so sluggish, it's unpleasant.

(I hope it's OK for a Model Y post here since we share the same battery.)

 

[AAKEE]

My June 2020 MY AB feels very sluggish at low SoC (<25%). One test I just did was:
SoC: 25%
Voltage: 340
Cell temp: 63.5F
Max power: 144 kW

With a 98% SoC, the max power is 356 kW when the battery if 75 degrees F.

Car is still very fast down to ~30% or so. At highway speeds below 20%, it's so sluggish, it's unpleasant.

(I hope it's OK for a Model Y post here since we share the same battery.)

That would be the ”old 78kwh” battery I guess?
AB, ehhh? Long Range or Performance?

63.5, about 17C.

This is my values from a earlier test:
30% SOC = 292hp /215kW (battery +6C)
25% SOC = 245hp /180kW (battery +8C)
20% SOC = 210hp /150-160kW( battery +10C

No huge difference in the cold behaviour then ?

 

[MY-Y]

That would be the ”old 78kwh” battery I guess?
AB, ehhh? Long Range or Performance?

63.5, about 17C.

This is my values from a earlier test:
30% SOC = 292hp /215kW (battery +6C)
25% SOC = 245hp /180kW (battery +8C)
20% SOC = 210hp /150-160kW( battery +10C

No huge difference in the cold behaviour then ?

AB = Acceleration-boost, AWD, non-performance. Sticker under the frunk bucket says 74 kWh, scanmytesla says the new full pack was 77.8 kWh, now reporting the "degraded" pack capacity is 70.8 kWh.

 

[AAKEE]

AB = Acceleration-boost, AWD, non-performance. Sticker under the frunk bucket says 74 kWh, scanmytesla says the new full pack was 77.8 kWh, now reporting the "degraded" pack capacity is 70.8 kWh.

Yes thats the ”old” Panna battery.

So I had more lower at 25% SOC despite colder battery ( I had 8C vs MY 77.8kwh 17C ).
The whole thing about being unhappy because the new battery is so bad....is the old one quite like?

 

[Tomtao]

I have ordered a 2021 Model 3 Standard range + it seems was built in China with the LFP Battery.
I have asked Tesla to change to a Model 3 Long range ,
however is there a way to tell if the long-range that is built in China has NCM battery or LFP battery ?

The 7th Digit of my VIN is "E" which really does not give much information about that battery it is ...
Please help !

 

[Devils son]

I have ordered a 2021 Model 3 Standard range + it seems was built in China with the LFP Battery.
I have asked Tesla to change to a Model 3 Long range ,
however is there a way to tell if the long-range that is built in China has NCM battery or LFP battery ?

The 7th Digit of my VIN is "E" which really does not give much information about that battery it is ...
Please help !

LR never has LFP. And in the EU they went back to all US made Model 3. So no more LFP for now.

 

[DHEV]

LR never has LFP. And in the EU they went back to all US made Model 3. So no more LFP for now.

Not entirely accurate, all RHD models coming to Europe (UK, Ireland) are MIC. SR+ will have CATL's LFP and LR most likely LG's NMC

 

[Devils son]

Not entirely accurate, all RHD models coming to Europe (UK, Ireland) are MIC. SR+ will have CATL's LFP and LR most likely LG's NMC

The UK is not in the EU anymore, thanks to the stupidity of a majority of the voters.

But you are right, Ireland is the exception.

 

[AAKEE]

This might already be posted in this thread, but it might be worth reading again, with reference to cold batterys and the low power that follows:

Tesla Model Y Heat Pump Details Infrequently Discussed By The Media

Tesla is using the thermal mass of the battery to store heat. When they pull it back out they allow the pack temperature to drop to 10C (50F). The amount of heat energy that could be stored in the pack calculates out around 2.5-3 kWh so the battery can hold a decent amount of heat.

Thats the reference to the low battery temps, and precise in line with the battery temp readings I see.
The article contain a lot of relevant information to the low battery temps and it should be clear to any reader that tho low battery temp is not a misstake or a glitch, but a active choise by Tesla to use the battery as a thermal storage.
We wont see a big quick change because it would have a huge impact on consumtion in cold weather.

The performance should have( ”get”) a active heating choise preferably under the ”performance tab”.

Im leaning to believe that the old battery 2170, also would perform worse with low battery temps if used in a car with the heat pump/ octovalve.

 

[eivissa]

Im leaning to believe that the old battery 2170, also would perform worse with low battery temps if used in a car with the heat pump/ octovalve.

Why do you say "would"? The currently sold E3CD is exactly that. Old LR/P 2170C Battery Pack with Heat pump. So far I've only heard performance driver complain, but maybe it's just normal behaviour, that LR drivers don't bother so much about Performance.

Here is a read out made today by an E3CD driver in Germany. No surprises there...

Also quite a few receivers of E3CD got the boost option for free. No one knows why. Tesla compensating for the low performance at low temperatures?