Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide

[Rocky_H]

So I just bought a brand new home and the garage came wired with 8/2 wire but no outlet. I plan on installing a NEMA 6-50 with a 40a breaker since the wire is only 8/2 and I will be charging at 30amps. Should be okay right?

Yeah, that sounds like a fine plan.

Seems odd. I mean mine is like that. But only because I had an electrician disconnect a dedicated arc welding plug in the garage so I could free up breakers in the panel to reuse for a home remodel since I don’t use an arc welder.

You need to have someone check and make sure there is NOTHING else on that line as well before you go any further.

In a newly built house, it is a California Title 24 thing.

It's not odd really for a newly built house/garage. Many states are instituting requirements to pre-wire for being "EV Ready". Different states have different requirements for that. Some specify to put an outlet on, some not. But regardless, they need to get the wire in the wall before the sheet rock goes up, because that's the expensive part to retrofit later.

But it's not legal because someone could plug in a higher power device and be driven so mad by the nuisance trips that they end up snapping and doing something stupid. Otherwise, the worst case scenario is the very small chance that an inspector might uncover your crime when you sell the house and force you to change the outlet and breaker to 30A versions.

Yes, it is legal--because of this:

It's actually perfectly legal. Because there is no specific 40a NEMA outlet, you are allowed to use a 50a outlet on a 40a circuit. It's a very common installation in the rest of the EV world of largely 30a EVSEs.

There is a specific code provision that allows this.
And I think that may be one of the reasons why Tesla made the 2nd gen mobile connector only run at 32A max. There are a lot of these 50A outlet types on 40A circuits, and they did not want to be the cause of any problems of people drawing 40A from a 40A circuit, and risking problems if faulty breakers didn't cut that off.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Thanks for the correction @davewill and @Rocky_H
NEC 210.21 states that while 30A outlets *must* have 30A circuits, they do make an exception for 50A outlets which can be supplied by either 50A or 40A circuits. There is an exception to this table for dedicated welder outlets but otherwise this is pretty much everything most of us need to know.

 

[Rocky_H]

NEC 210.21 states that while 30A outlets *must* have 30A circuits, they do make an exception for 50A outlets which can be supplied by either 50A or 40A circuits. There is an exception to this table for dedicated welder outlets but otherwise this is pretty much everything most of us need to know.

Well...that is a good and helpful chart, but I'm having to get into the weeds with a modification to this correction. Unfortunately, that chart is not directly applicable to an outlet for EV charging. (I know--even more confusing.)
If you read the heading of that section that contains Table 210.21(B)(3), it says that is for circuits with multiple outlets on it, and it is describing what kind of outlet types can be on those multi-outlet circuits.
But in the section 625, which is a section all about EV charging stuff, it says that an outlet installed for the purpose of EV charging must be a dedicated single outlet on that circuit. So for the single outlet case, it doesn't have to meet that table exactly. And so the more general specification for single outlet just says that the breaker must be no higher than the outlet type. So technically, you can have kind of ridiculous stuff like a 6-50 outlet on a 20 or 30 amp breaker. Some equipment does happen to be made for things like that. It may really only be like a 20 or 30A piece of shop equipment that only needs that level of circuit, but it comes with a bigger type plug, so it can also plug into bigger capacity outlets if that's what you already have in your shop.

But yeah, the more general point that keeps coming up is that there is never an allowed case to have a 60A breaker with a 50A outlet type, so I don't know why so many people keeping making that same mistake over and over that we see on this forum.

 

[brulaz]

Have a 30A 240V dryer circuit and breaker on a 100A panel.
We use the dryer very rarely.
Is it legit to use the same breaker with parallel wiring to another socket for car charging?

 

[davewill]

Have a 30A 240V dryer circuit and breaker on a 100A panel.
We use the dryer very rarely.
Is it legit to use the same breaker with parallel wiring to another socket for car charging?

The short answer is no. EV charging circuits are required to be dedicated (one outlet on the circuit). I'm not sure, but I expect the dryer circuit may have a similar requirement. Some people who's dryer is actually located in their garage have installed switching devices that allow both the EVSE and the dryer to be plugged into the one wall plug, with only one of them active at a time. However, if your dryer is elsewhere, there's no code compliant way to do that.

 

[Rocky_H]

Is it legit to use the same breaker with parallel wiring to another socket for car charging?

The short answer is no.

Correct.

Some people who's dryer is actually located in their garage have installed switching devices that allow both the EVSE and the dryer to be plugged into the one wall plug, with only one of them active at a time. However, if your dryer is elsewhere, there's no code compliant way to do that.

Right, you can do an A/B toggle switch in the circuit, so that only one side is active at a time, and that effectively meets the "dedicated" requirement. But I'm not sure why you think the location would make that not work. You just have to do it far enough upstream in the circuit, before it gets to either outlet, and then it doesn't matter how far or where the two branches go after that.

 

[davewill]

Correct.

Right, you can do an A/B toggle switch in the circuit, so that only one side is active at a time, and that effectively meets the "dedicated" requirement. But I'm not sure why you think the location would make that not work. You just have to do it far enough upstream in the circuit, before it gets to either outlet, and then it doesn't matter how far or where the two branches go after that.

I was referring to using an external device like the "Dryer Buddy" that just plugs in. Since, by code, you can't take an extension cord through a wall into the garage, it's a non-starter if your dryer outlet isn't already in the garage. (Yes, I know people on here have done it, but it's really not OK.)

Maybe there's a way to do some sort of transfer switch and have it all properly wired to code, but that's beyond me.

 

[Rocky_H]

I was referring to using an external device like the "Dryer Buddy" that just plugs in. Since, by code, you can't take an extension cord through a wall into the garage, it's a non-starter if your dryer outlet isn't already in the garage. (Yes, I know people on here have done it, but it's really not OK.)

Maybe there's a way to do some sort of transfer switch and have it all properly wired to code, but that's beyond me.

Oh, whoops, I went too fast and did misread what you said. You were saying from the one plug. Yes, I meant wiring in an inline transfer switch.

 

[brulaz]

Ok, thanks. The dryer is far from where we want a plug for the car. So manual switch it is. Think I saw a thread here about how to do that.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

Correct.

Right, you can do an A/B toggle switch in the circuit, so that only one side is active at a time, and that effectively meets the "dedicated" requirement. But I'm not sure why you think the location would make that not work. You just have to do it far enough upstream in the circuit, before it gets to either outlet, and then it doesn't matter how far or where the two branches go after that.

Yep - that's what I have installed at my barn. I have a Nema 14-50 and a Tesla HPWC @ 40 amp. I use this switch inside to toggle them.
This would work for @brulaz

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

the heading of that section that contains Table 210.21(B)(3), it says that is for circuits with multiple outlets on it

I believe you are correct that the NEC allows daisy-chaining (non EVSE) outlets of any amperage. But other rule sets such as IRC 3702.5 specifically forbid daisy-chaining any outlets over 20A regardless of intended use.

But in the section 625, which is a section all about EV charging stuff, it says that an outlet installed for the purpose of EV charging must be a dedicated single outlet

Yes, so even if your state doesn't have code prohibiting daisy-chaining, National Code still prohibits it for EVSE use.

So technically, you can have kind of ridiculous stuff like a 6-50 outlet on a 20 or 30 amp breaker.

That's clearly in violation of the NEC 210.21 table above and there is logic behind it. Nuisance trips drive people crazy, homebuyers could be misled, contractors could be misleading, and perhaps most importantly, it's unlikely that a 20A breaker and 50A outlet would be compatible with the same wire gauge since they each have upper/lower diameter limits.

 

[brulaz]

Yep - that's what I have installed at my barn. I have a Nema 14-50 and a Tesla HPWC @ 40 amp. I use this switch inside to toggle them.
This would work for @brulaz
View attachment 643174View attachment 643175

Little hard to tell what sort of switch you're using. Found this 30A dpdt:https://www.amazon.com/Legrand-Pass-Seymour-1276-Pass-1276-Switch/dp/B008SC6IO4
Hmmm link doesn't work. But it's a LeGrand pass Seymour model 1276.
Too small for your application but might work for mine.

 

[Rocky_H]

Yep - that's what I have installed at my barn. I have a Nema 14-50 and a Tesla HPWC @ 40 amp. I use this switch inside to toggle them.
This would work for @brulaz

Little hard to tell what sort of switch you're using. Found this 30A dpdt:https://www.amazon.com/Legrand-Pass-Seymour-1276-Pass-1276-Switch/dp/B008SC6IO4
Too small for your application but might work for mine.

Yeah, that kind of the type of thing I am used to seeing, where it's a separate piece of hardware that is a dedicated device made to toggle between two.
What @DMC-Orangeville has is interesting, but I have not seen something like that before. It's just the two breakers for the devices (three phase, right?) but there is a metal clip mounted across the handles for both that enforces physically that they cannot both be on at the same time.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

Little hard to tell what sort of switch you're using. Found this 30A dpdt:https://www.amazon.com/Legrand-Pass-Seymour-1276-Pass-1276-Switch/dp/B008SC6IO4
Hmmm link doesn't work. But it's a LeGrand pass Seymour model 1276.
Too small for your application but might work for mine.

It's a Siemens 12 circuit pony panel - no main. The feed from the main panel feeds through the 2 pole 50 amp breaker. The 3 pole 60 (perhaps the 2 pole were on back-order) amp breakers feed the Nema 14-50 and HPWC. They have a metal "lock-out" which only allows one of the breakers to be on.

Yeah, that kind of the type of thing I am used to seeing, where it's a separate piece of hardware that is a dedicated device made to toggle between two.
What @DMC-Orangeville has is interesting, but I have not seen something like that before. It's just the two breakers for the devices (three phase, right?) but there is a metal clip mounted across the handles for both that enforces physically that they cannot both be on at the same time.

Correct! If the "off" breaker is switched on, the metal "lock-out" will switch the other breaker off. I don't know why they used a 3 pole breaker, when a 2 pole would have done - as mentioned above, they may have been back-ordered.
The electrician suggested this - it was about a 2-$300 addition to the installation of the HPWC. Cheap. It allowed that other vehicles could use the power for a charge. Note: in 6 years - probably 200 Teslas have charged here....and about 6 other non-Tesla vehicles.

 

[wws]

It's a Siemens 12 circuit pony panel - no main. The feed from the main panel feeds through the 2 pole 50 amp breaker. The 3 pole 60 (perhaps the 2 pole were on back-order) amp breakers feed the Nema 14-50 and HPWC. They have a metal "lock-out" which only allows one of the breakers to be on.



Correct! If the "off" breaker is switched on, the metal "lock-out" will switch the other breaker off. I don't know why they used a 3 pole breaker, when a 2 pole would have done - as mentioned above, they may have been back-ordered.
The electrician suggested this - it was about a 2-$300 addition to the installation of the HPWC. Cheap. It allowed that other vehicles could use the power for a charge. Note: in 6 years - probably 200 Teslas have charged here....and about 6 other non-Tesla vehicles.

I wonder if that A/B slider is only available on Siemens' three-phase breaker line? Pretty neat setup.

 

[brulaz]

Yes, that separate "pony" panel is nice.
I've got two 100A panels (house+workshop) connected to my meter. But the meter (and feedin wires???) may have a 200A limit???

 

[westie10019]

Comparing the 2 outlets recommended by Tesla with the sub $10 big box model as well as the one I think you should buy

1. Hubbell 9450a
2. Bryant 9450fr
3. Cooper 5754n
4. Leviton 279-S00

The Hubbell and Bryant are far and away the superior product here and since Hubbell owns Bryant and these outlets were recently redesigned you can see from the pictures that there is almost no difference in these products, looks to me that it may only be the size of the allen screws and that is it.

The main reasons these are superior are, Lug boxes with V shape and the heavy copper strap that when tightening gathers the wire together instead of separating them and the fact that these both use 75 in. pounds of torque instead of 25 like the other 2, they both handle higher temperatures and have heavier one pc. power and ground contacts, there is no comparison to any other 14-50 Nema outlets.

The Cooper is good and much heavier than the Leviton but still falls short of the Hubbell and Bryant.

The Leviton unit is like a toy compared to others as it's really poorly built with smaller contacts, screw terminals without a pinch lock causing the wire to be stressed when tightened, just a cheap design.

https://www.mc-mc.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/ITEMS/EN/Hubbell_9450FR_Brochure.pdf

Best part is now you don't have to pay $90 to $100 or more for the Hubbel as you can get the Bryant for $21

Bryant 50A 4W Single Receptacle 125/250VAC 14-50R BK 9450FR | Zoro.com

View attachment 369974 View attachment 369976 View attachment 369977 View attachment 369978

I work in the electrical construction industry and EVERYONE knows HUBBELL Products to be the top of the line! Bryant is a very close 2nd. I don't get it, when it comes to electrical hardware and products I will only buy and install the best products in my home. Electrical work is NOT A HOBBY, it takes many years of schooling, work study hours and practical work experience under the guidance of a Master Electrician. The most highly trained and qualified Electricians took part in the IBEW Apprentice Program. It is a grueling 5-7 year program that demands the students %100 attention and dedication.

Watching the house repair porn shows on TV does not make you a safe or qualified electrician. Most of these shows use an actor or some unskilled, untrained handyman to install electrical products. Ask yourself would you let an unqualified person work in your home where your family lives with a product or device that can cause a fire and produce a tragic outcome? I always thought Tesla Owners were a little smarter, educated, informed and concerned about safety! From what I see on these post, it seems that is not the case and the overwhelming concern is to save a dollar! WOW!

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

I work in the electrical construction industry and EVERYONE knows HUBBELL Products to be the top of the line! Bryant is a very close 2nd. I don't get it, when it comes to electrical hardware and products I will only buy and install the best products in my home. Electrical work is NOT A HOBBY, it takes many years of schooling, work study hours and practical work experience under the guidance of a Master Electrician. The most highly trained and qualified Electricians took part in the IBEW Apprentice Program. It is a grueling 5-7 year program that demands the students %100 attention and dedication.

Watching the house repair porn shows on TV does not make you a safe or qualified electrician. Most of these shows use an actor or some unskilled, untrained handyman to install electrical products. Ask yourself would you let an unqualified person work in your home where your family lives with a product or device that can cause a fire and produce a tragic outcome? I always thought Tesla Owners were a little smarter, educated, informed and concerned about safety! From what I see on these post, it seems that is not the case and the overwhelming concern is to save a dollar! WOW!

More like save $1,000 but you do make a good point.

On the other hand if the Industry didn't try to take advantage of people who own Tesla vehicles (Not 100% of the businesses but enough to give people the perception that it is) than more people would be quicker to hire a professional to do the job. I forget the exact pricing that I was quoted from a few different electricians 2 years ago to install a 14-50 receptacle next to my breaker box but I think they came in from $900 to $1600. The requested receptacle was less than 3 feet from the panel and no major re-wiring needed to be done.

I got a permit from the country ($60? which got me professional inspector to review my work before turning it on), and some parts (~$100 few breakers, wire, box, cover, receptacle) and a few hours of my time saved a thousand dollars. I would have paid $400-500 for it but no one was offering me the service for a fair price because it was for a Tesla that was sitting in plain sight in the garage. From what I've seen from my quotes, it seems that is not the case and the overhwleming concern of the majority of the Industry was trying to make an extra dollar from Tesla owners.

 

[Ostrichsak]

I work in the electrical construction industry and EVERYONE knows HUBBELL Products to be the top of the line! Bryant is a very close 2nd. I don't get it, when it comes to electrical hardware and products I will only buy and install the best products in my home. Electrical work is NOT A HOBBY, it takes many years of schooling, work study hours and practical work experience under the guidance of a Master Electrician. The most highly trained and qualified Electricians took part in the IBEW Apprentice Program. It is a grueling 5-7 year program that demands the students %100 attention and dedication.

Watching the house repair porn shows on TV does not make you a safe or qualified electrician. Most of these shows use an actor or some unskilled, untrained handyman to install electrical products. Ask yourself would you let an unqualified person work in your home where your family lives with a product or device that can cause a fire and produce a tragic outcome? I always thought Tesla Owners were a little smarter, educated, informed and concerned about safety! From what I see on these post, it seems that is not the case and the overwhelming concern is to save a dollar! WOW!

Uhm... I was an electrician. It's nowhere near as complicated as you're trying to make it seem. Especially since we're only talking about installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet here. Hardly an advanced project that requires a Master Electrician to complete safely and properly.

Based on some of the crap I've seen when opening up some other "experts" boxes I'm continually amazed that there isn't more houses burning to the ground every day. Clearly anyone can do it with relative success.

While I think it's important that the person doing the install take it serious and make sure they fully understand what they're doing and double and triple check everything for proper installation, I'm not going to sit here and act like this is something only like four people alive can do properly.

If the last year has taught us anything it's that having a basic understanding of various things around us and the ability to complete basic tasks ourselves isn't a bad idea.

 

[JoJa15]

Can someone recommend a good weatherproof outdoor enclosure that will fit the Bryant 14-50 receptacle?

Zoro Select Receptacle, 50 A Amps, 125/250V AC, Flush Mount, Single Outlet, 14-50R, Black 9450FR | Zoro

Order Zoro Select Receptacle, 50 A Amps, 125/250V AC, Flush Mount, Single Outlet, 14-50R, Black, 9450FR at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.

www.zoro.com

I plan on mounting right below my outside breaker box.

Since it is outside I assume I also need a GFCI breaker? Is that separate from the 50A breaker in the breaker box? If someone could recommend the GFCI breaker to go with the Bryant and outdoor box I would appreciate.

I am hoping to get all the parts and then have an electrician install it.

Thanks in advance for any help provided!